1st off, I thought Black SUCKED...

Load and Reload were defnitely much better...

A radio station decides what to play based on what their listeners want to hear, the band has no say so in that what-so-ever... I remember listening to Megadeth on the radio back when 'Symphony of Destruction' came out, that was the 1st time they ever got any radio airplay, but I don't recall anyone calling them sellouts... The music was more friendly for the average listener, people liked it, so the radio stations played it... Thats the way the music game works..

Thats a bit shortsighted... Thats like saying Bill Gates shouldnt try to improve on the GUI of windows because thats getting away from the essence of DOS, which made him in the 1st place... The aim of a musician, whether you know it or not (and I do, I spent a year on the road as a musician) is to be good and successful at what you do. So, to NOT be a sellout, what you are saying is that you pick a select group of people. then you only make music that THEY like, you never try to draw in new people, you never try to improve your music so that other people will like it.. Theres alot of 1 hit wonder bands that fill that requirement. I remember alot of my friends running around yelling 'I'll play what I want, the way I want it ! ' , most of them are digging ditches for a living these days...

I personally think their music is better now than it was (with the exception of Master), but I also don't expect every album to sound like a carbon copy of a song from their last album...

These are personal opinions.

This is simply not true. Radio stations have agreements with record labels. These labels pay the stations for a certain amount of play time. As an example: You own a radio station, You are offered an agreement with a group of labels (Elektra/Asylum included), They will supply you with Promo CD's, concert tickets, posters, x,xxx,xxx amount of dollars, etc. You agree to give new releases of a specific format certain play time. A few weeks before St. Anger is to be released you recieve promo discs and instructions to play track 3, 6 times a day for 2 weeks. Track 5, 4 times a day for 2 weeks etc. You are required to give away promotional copies of the album, etc.

This is to generate sales of the album. This is how they advertise. Yes radio stations play songs based on requests, but new material is distibuted through the labels based on agreements. Have you ever got sick of a song because it was overplayed?



Nope wrong again. Although this is a democracy there are a lot of things "the people" will not and can not control. Money talks. Even if the people hate it the radio stations are obligated by contractual agreements to follow the guidelines that the labels set for the particular piece of music.

This is why artists try to get signed by the biggest labels. The bigger the label the more push on sales = $$$.

On the other end of the scale sometimes good music can make a small label a big sucess. <---- Very Rare.

Unfortunatley artist value is usually second to pocket value.

Another point. Americans are very trendy people. They thrive on the next "thing". Example: Vanilla Ice, Mullets, Bell Bottoms. What was once popular looses its luster with time.

The essence of DOS is in Windows. DOS is Disk Operating System. Its a piece of software that manages the critical operation of a PC. Some examples are:

MS-DOS
Unix
Linux
OS/2
Windows

What Gates did was excellent. He made PC operation easy. Now all people can fully take advantage of all the benifits that computers offer. They way he brought the Graphical User Interface (GUI) together was briliant. Now with the click of a button you are giving the PC command line instructions. He has in NO way strayed from the essence of DOS.

That is not what I'm saying. What I am suggesting is that you stay pure. Do not change your values for the sake of money. Maintain your integrity. Be yourself. If people don't like you for who you are thats ok. Variety is ok. I didn't suggest you select your audience, but that is what Metallica is doing. They are selecting the Pop crowd. It's a bigger crowd with more dollars involved. They are changing their style to suit a different audience. $$$.

Jimmie Hendrix was a one-hit-wonder!

Some things move me further than others. I feel I have spent to much time on this topic especially considering it is all personal opinion and not fact.

Did they sell out or not?

I feel cheated. But thats just my opinion. I'm not asking you to agree with me. A simple "thats not how I feel" would have worked.

I hope that no hard feelings come of this.

"ME" being the key word.

This is also just not 100% true. Though a radio station does make promotional agreements with bands, especially the largest syndicated radio labels, if this were completely the way a radio station worked, then no one would ever be able to request music.. Most radio stations I know maintain 24 hour request lines, and mix it in with their regular programming. Yes, there are promtional agreements with the labels, but if it worked this way in totality, local, regional, and crappy national acts would never get any radio time. Also, because alot of radio stations are independently owned, it is simply impossible for a band / promoter to 'do the rounds' with 18000 independent radio stations, and to pay them to secure air time for his bands. Larger companies do shell out promotional money for their acts, but if this were the way the entire industry worked, only the large labels would ever receive radio airplay.

Why shouldnt it be? If you're not doing it for the money, you should never bother moving from the 'amateur' musician to the 'professional' musician stage...

This is partially true... A radio station that plays something that people doesn't want to here doesnt get listeners, therefore no promoter would ever pay money for them to promote their music..
Its a pretty fine balance i'd say, folks are pretty finiky about their radio stations.. While it's true that DJ's have almost 0 control of their music, to think that programming directors choice of music is controlled 100% by 'BOUGHT' air time on record labels is also a bit ludicious.. Radio is a business like anything else, but remember the major source of revenue for radio... ADVERTISEMENT... Thats the silver bullet that gives them a degree of freedom with what they play.

I would then say that the 'essence' of Metallica is still there in their music.. Loud, distorted guitars, James Hetfields crooning voice, Kirks bluesy pentonic rifts... Did you ever think that when they first came out that maybe they were trying to 'play to the masses' rather than their true artistic vision, rather than making the music they feel they wanted to make? At what point is a band a sellout, and at what point are they a purist? Maybe they are just now playing the music they've spent their entire lives trying to write, maybe the issue lies in the ear of the expectant listener.

You've obviously never dealt with Unix guru's and commandline nazis..

Actually, linux isnt an Operating system, it's a kernel of an operating system.. Combine it with all the tools and what not, and it's an operting system. (Linux purist hackers are very nitpicky about that note) Im being very nitpicky even bringing it up! LOL


Actually, most of that was Xerox, then Mac, then Windows... Bill and Co. just borrowed what they found... In fact in the early days, most people screamed 'Windows GUI sucks, Macs are much better'

To say that a click of the button provides the utility of a specificed command line invocation is also a bit simplistic. GUI tools allow you to do simple invocations, but to do anything right, you still need commandline. Thats why few people in the linux/unix world rely on a GUI. They only use it so they can run 'xmms' and 'xclock'
Alot of those same people are screaming that Windows is the 'bubblegumming' of DOS for the masses. I remember listening to every 'I'm computer illiterate person' complaining about DOS being to hard and too cryptic to learn. I will bet you 5$ I can find threads where commandline purists are screaming that Windows is 'selling out' because of the GUI.. LOL... (probably going to be 5 years old, but what the hey!)

You've obviously never tried to sell a song to make a car payment. If you come from an exceedingly rich family, and your success or failure makes no difference whatsoever in terms of your kids being able to attend a decent college, whether or not you are going to drive a ferrari or a taxi, or live in a mansion or a cardboard box, then maybe this is a distinction you may afford to make.
I wouldnt say this makes a person a sellout, I'd say it makes them 'smart'. Artistic vision is something everyone has, but everyone gradually loses once they realize that the musical world is not there to cater to their musicial tastes.

I understand completely, we each have and are entitled to our opinions, and I welcome them, whether I agree with them or not.

I would never get offended by someone elses arguements unless they were absuive personally, but that's me. Some people these days don't realize a good discusion can include 2 people that don't agree on something. You will notice that when the argument decays to someone bashing the others spelling...lol... (also a sign of someone that has lost and is unwilling to admit someone else is right...lol...)

Personally, I never feel cheated because I don't feel that anyone owes me anything. I would say cheated would mean that they had been some intention on their part to deliver a product that you wanted to hear. Cheated means they have deliberately misled you.

Like I said its personal opinion to me.

Thanks for the great conversation.

I dunno,

I used to like metallica,until they ruined our music swapping online that is!!!!!!

It was THEM who started this thing about trading music and stuff that ended it for us........(I know you can still d/l music and all,but its harder to do it safely now)

I dunno.....I say exploit metallica's music for what they have done,i dunno......

John :)

if you really liked mettalica's music then how would what th edo affect how there band sounds and the reason they put an end to napster is that there profits were going down. if everyone gets music for free then how will they get money to make more cds and music videos
it really ticks me off when people start off on how mettalica ruined
naapster. how would you feel if people were just getting your music for free and you werent getting a cent. :evil:

Don't you mean what Gates stole was excellent? :twisted:

How did he steal it, he bought it ? ( I assume you mean DOS )

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa033099.htm

Notice that one of the original investors of QDos on with MS-DOS was based went to work for Microsoft ..

If you're referring to the GUI, hard to say he stole it when Apple got it from Xerox in the first place. They pretty much made it Public Domain technology...

1984 "Fade to Black" Metallica thought of as evil, sadistic, satanic, they appeared on TV to help explain the fan's take.
"Suicidal, alienated people can relate to this song and feel they are understood and have hope that they are not the only ones feeling this way. quote by fans"

1990-1 "Nothing Else Matters" Metallica wrote a love song, best selling album! I liked them less, and found it so/so.

1995 LOAD: Couldn't find a thing on this album I liked, so I used as a skeet in my backyard after a few drinks. <Pull> <Bang!> <laughing I missed> <again!> I didn't care what people said about them at this point.

From some people's point of view they sold out. My favorite album remains Ride the Lightning. Another example? U2!

EOF

PS: There is alot of music out there, try smaller bands. They don't change alot, they only get better, and appreciate their fans <they have to because the name of their band means nothing>.