nice info on that post on the luclin forum

The problem with this draft thing that pisses me off is the hypocritical politics that will go down behind this. People with money and power will always be able use there influience to protect there love ones from this process while we regular people have to say our goodbyes to our love ones. Where is the equality in that. Example, Bush has 2 daughters of age that would be eligible for this draft. Do you really think that Bush would allow even one of his daughters to be drafted much less be in the trenches in Iraq with our regular sons and daughters. F*** no! That would go for most of the political big wigs to.

Now, I am proud of you guys that said that you would go to fight or would be drafted to do so, hands down. Im not saying im for the draft or against it. Just that it is unfair or will be. Before i get flamed or something, i will say that i would not be eligible for this draft if it went into place due to my age. But my younger brother and sister would. I served in the first war with the US Army out of Ft. Hood straight out of highschool under another Bush. I did my share of damage for my country the first few weeks of the war. I wouldnt wish anything like that experience for my sister that i went though. I think my bro could handle it, but it wouldnt be anything like he would expect. Plus this war is much much more worse than the fighting i went through. I am totaly against the Bush family politics for my own reasons, but i would do the duty if my country required it in a heart beat. The Bush family is in the oil business. Trust me, they have or had strong ties to Opec, oil rich Arab nations, and Bin Laiden. I bet good money that family is roll it in with the high prices on gas right now. Reason i suspect this is because after the heavy fighting was over in the first Iraq war, My Company was assigned to guard large oil facilities in Saudi for a few months owned by no other than the current Pres. Bush's dad and at the time my Commander and Cheif. Your tax dollars at work. I really hope that Disney releases that film Fahrenheit 911 by that guy that made Bowling for Columbine.. Michael Moore. Lots for dirt devestating to Bush i hear.

Would you send family of the most powerful American overseas without hardcore protection? If they got drafted, they'd stay state-side in communication or intel or something.

You can't have a family man's family hostage to another country when he's required to think for all of us. He'll get conflicted. Any man would. Let daughter get raped and tortured, or forfeit troops and information? Hmmmmmm.

Oh really? The US didn't instigate what's going on in Iraq? Was it UN sanctioned? Nope. So please, since you seem to deem yourself so intelligent on world politics, what gives the US the right to just wander into a country and take over based on FALSE intelligence? Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Haven't been found yet have they? Nor will they ever find them, it was complete bullshit. NO single country in the world has to answer to another, let alone the US. That's why we have the UN. Even the UN weapons inspectors are calling bullshit on it. You know...the folks that were actually IN the country doing the actual work.

As for 911 having anything to do with Iraq? Other than a remote posibility that there might have been some of Al-Qaida trained there (i.e. no definitive proof there either, pure speculation) there was no reason to invade Iraq based on the trajedy of 9/11. Nice try at bluring the lines though.

Keep eating up the propaganda machines meals of misinformation like a good little sheep.

We didn't go to war with Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction. We went because they refused to prove that they had destroyed them as was the terms of the end of the last war set down by the United Nations. Unfortunately, the UN has turned out to be nothing more than a yappy, little dog, afraid to back up their own resolutions. It's true, that except for a morter shell containing serin gas (which is a WMD), we haven't found the WMDs we claimed were there. But, we also have not found any evidence that they were destroyed. We know that Iraq had them. They used them on the Kurds more than once. Because of this, I feel the WMD question is still unanswered. This topic has been run into the ground by both sides. I'm tired of hearing people argue about it when no one has any proof of what happened to them either way. But this is a fact. Iraq was required to show proof that their WMDs had been destroyed by the UN. Iraq did not do that. The UN sat on their hands because they are a bunch of miserable cowards who want to sit on their thrones and pretend that the world is a peaceful place and that everyone just wants to get along. I'm glad the US doesn't indulge in such delusions.

Rangerdown, thanks for that link. It's good to hear the whole story. I just hope that was, in fact, the whole story. It seems that some people in government are trying to mess with our heads on this issue. Unfortunatly, if they want to do so, they can. But, I don't blame the shadey government types as much as I blame the idiots that put them there. So, who is trying to sow fear in America?

Charmy , you dont even know what ur country is doing.
They said they got photos from ABC-Weapons in Iraq...

Its ur own bloody fault if u admire G B

What those of you need to understand is there are more ways to serve your country than to go to some foreign country to blow a guys head off. War has never worked and the idea of 'serving your country' by becoming a killer is just ridiculous. As if we don't "support" our country enough with all the taxes they throw at us. You have no right to call anyone a pussy because they won't fight for this country (I would hope most people would have the moral that killing is WRONG), it should be our choice not the governments.

What most people don't realize is this: We have successfully liberated a very tortured and serioudly supressed nation. Its almost cliche now, but do you not remmeber 9-11? Why did we go to Iraq? If you want to say conspiracy theories and say "We went for oil" or "We went cause of George Bush's Dad" or whatever you want, you are seriously ignorant. Lets look at the facts: We went to this war because of our War on Terrorism. Iraq and Sadam Hussain supported Terrorism, AL Quida, for the biggest example, adn were terrorists themselves. Look what Sadam did to his own people. Second, we went because it is our Duty and Privelage as a God-blessed nation to make sure other countries get to experience the same liberties we have: Life, health, and the pursuit of happiness. Third, it is HONORABLE and a duty to your sworn nation to defend it if asked. America wouldn't be a nation without a war, nor would any country have been successful without war. Reguardless, tehre will always be someone in this world with evil intentions wanting to harm others and take controll of everyone. What is america doing now? TRYING TO PREVENT THAT. You may say this war is evil, but according to our worlds history, and our duty to this world, this war is as important and necessary as even our Revolutionary war. One last comment. I heard this analogy a while ago, adn thought it was very on-topic. "If you point a gun at a bank robber, and he doens't drop his gun, should you leave him alone, or shoot him? You warn him again, and he doesn't do it. Should you shoot him, or leave him alone? You warn him once more, and still he doesn't. You fire, killing the bank robber. Was he not warned to put down the gun? The same happened in Iraq, as we tried to get their cooporation in the weapons inspection, they held on to their gun; and we warned; and last, we fired."

How can you say it should be your choice to fight for your country or not.... i know this will sound stupid to some poeple but seriously no one is forcing you to live here... go move somewhere where you dont have to be drafted or pay taxes see how much fun you have... war is not a good thing but it is necessary sometimes. what is supposed to happen? everyone ignore Iraq and terrorism until a terrorist comes to your house and lights you on fire? i mean wtf... on the other hand i can see people not wanting to kill but you cant expect all the freedom and safety you get without giving anything back.

There are countries that are very prosperous which have no army. If you didn't know, until the early 1900's the United States isolated itself from tending to others problems. Obviously WWI came around and we broke that belief which was held since the late 1700's. I still find the liberation of Iraq questionnable because of the timing. Ok lets say that they did support terrorism, that it was justifyable, the main reason we went into Iraq was because of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Now this just bothers me a bit .... WE DID NOT FIND ANY!!! Bush doesn't give a rats ass about liberating a country, he changed his political stance on Iraq because he knew people would no longer buy into WMD since they couldn't find any. The fact that you are buying into his new political stance is horrible, don't be so gullable.

Honestly this was a personal thing between Bush and Saddam, he just found the perfect excuses to revenge his father. Come on hes just as human as you and I and we all know how popular revenge is. But this is just my opinion, trust me Bush does not have my vote for another term.

Shooting a bank robber? No it is not justifyable unless he is shooting someone else or you. If he is running away and you shoot him and are not a police officer, guess what, they can bring you to court. Why? Your life was not in danger.

This goes for police officers too, they are not allowed to shoot anyone unless their life or someone elses is in immediate danger. If someone is running away and the cop shoots them that cop is in deep crap.

Ok this comment is just plain ignorant, Did god himself come to you and tell him we were blessed by him(you remind me of that vice president who always said "god bless america and noone else" on head of state)? Thats right he didn't I do love the country i live in but since when did god come to earth saying we are blessed? I am not a real religious nut either(its been awhile years since ive gone to church) but it makes me sick when some one calls u.s blessed by god, you need to realize that everything on this planet is blessed by god(or not for some on this earth do not believe in him).

I agree that the whole notion about a god blessed nation is a little conceded. Even though I'm a christian I still dont like to look at everything like my God is the only true one because my book says so. Still though as a nation with the power to put a stop to major terrorist activities we should at least try. Also though I think we should either pull out of Iraq or bomb the s*@# out of them as if we dont then they will continue to have radicals who attack us. Bush went a little to far when he declared war on terrorism, since terrorism is not really a tangible thing but an ideal that people follow because of that we'll never win.

Here is the rationale behind HR 163:
[quote]Congressman Pete Stark January 8, 2003
It is my understanding that out of the 435 Members of this House and the 100 members of the Senate, only one -- only one -- has a child in active military service. Who are we to know the pain of war when we ourselves will not directly bear the brunt of that action? It won

Canadian Point of view.
 

Canadian Point of view.

It's nice to be Canadian except for all the forced french in everything sold... And french in schools... And french in total.
An I appologize for PM Cretien for not backing the USA like he should have right off the start. And I appologize for some of our musical artists (Brian Adams etc)
But one thing I will never take for granted is the ability to know that I will never be drafted into a war I do not believe in.

I know you got hit on Sept 11. I concider that an attack on canada as well as your beloved states. I respect the Old Stars and Stripes more than out crappy Leaf Flag.

When Bush first went to wat agains Bin laden, I was 100% behind him. But now that he just focuses his attention on "Freeing Iraq" how is that going to help get revenge or justice for the towers???

Bush being an Oil Baron (With daddy Bush) just shows his true intention.

The draft bill connot pass. Sure you are defending your country but think about it. The people who are over there now are people who signed up for this job. If they want relief then they are to be relieved by others who have accepted the job.

You can't sign up for a job as a janito and then as soon as they tell you to clean a really Shitty Toilet say, "Hmm, I wanna go home.. You should draft someone who didn't sign up to do this, and make them clean it up". It doesn't work that way. Sending in people who don't want to be there would be just as good as sending in scared children because the result will be the same.

In the end, they should just Ask people (Showing the dire need for soldiers) with commercials, Military TV Shows, Contests, etc. People will step forward before there is a real need for a draft.

What good is a free country, where you can't choose your fights or choose to be peacefull or not.

Canadian Point of View EH !!

I won't apologise for Cretiens stance nor should any Canadian. 9/11 was a huge travesty, in which I lost friends whom I miss dearly, but that doesn't mean Canada needed to get involved whatsoever. Our 'big brother' to the S is more than capable of fighting it's own battles, as well as battles they have no right to even be involved in (Iraq, Korea, Vietnam etc).

As for those whom tout the WPD as the reason for invading Iraq? What's next? Pakistan or India? Hell, they're developing nuclear weapons to use on each other, but since there's no real US interests there they'll just let them nuke each other eventually and let the fallout kill anything bordering the 2.

The only time the US forces it's might, since WW2, is when it's interests are threatened. Whether the threats be credible or imagined.

And just to clarify, when I say the US I mean the government, not the people. There's a lot of folks that live stateside I know that share the same POV.

Image, whether we found weapons or not, it was Iraq's job to prove that they were destroyed and to document it. They didn't, so we went fishing. They had ample time.

The UN resolution states that any member state can ask for proof, and when denied, attack in a defensive measure. It has nothing to do with what they have now. It has everything to do with the last war. They didn't end it satisfactorily, and broke the rules of the UN. Thus, we attack.

GWB didn't set the rules of that resolution, so it's not like he just said, "Oh snap! Fux0r teh Irak!", and sent troops. I don't agree that we should've done it, but it's our military's job to protect us, and GWB was acting in a way that protects us.

Is it colonistic? Yes. Is it immoral to kill? I don't think so; killing has its time and its place. But idealism is hard to maintain when you have the responsibility of 600,000,000 lives.

You guys can make fun of me or whatever but i support bush 110%
i think he is a good president and he did what he had to do.
i would be glad to join the army and ship out to iraq to fight a war for my country. You guys can call bush an idiot or a fag or whatever you want to call him but the truth of the matter is he did what was in the best interest for us and i for one respect that.

Huh? I hope you mean he did what he was told to do by his cabinet. Because the US had no business going to Iraq.

Get real here, maybe in the best interest of the US for monetary reasons cause thats what this is all about. This has nothing to do with Saddam being a threat or terrorism.

Square: You're talking in circles!
Circle: You're a square!

saddam wasn't a threat to the united states? he refused to disarm his wepons of mass destruction and gave direct threats to our country...these people were danceing in the streets celebrateing on 9/11. we kept finding tapes of threats to our country from these people. maby thats not a threat to you but i consider it a threat to me. and yes it was to the best interest of the united states to go to war with iraq. in fact the majority of u.s. citizens are bush fans. if you go out west everyone loves him just because you live on the east coast and see all the protesters and shit doesnt mean everyone in this country hates him. anyway my opinion is that he is a good president and im not going to sit here and let everyone talk shit about him. but you people can say what you want...we shouldnt have gone to war blah blah we should just wait for them to hit us with more terrorism too right? i dont think so this is the u.s. we need to fight for our rights and freedom..we cant stay the top nation without posing a threat to other ones and if we dont retaliate when something goes wrong who is going to fear us? if you people had any kind of education you would realize that bush is doing the right thing but instead you hear the words draft or death and you whine like bitches...grow up a little bit people. i would gladly give my life for my country. war isnt a good thing...of corse it isn't but it is the necessary thing. we needed to hit these terrorists before they hit us again. the u.s. is the police of the world it is our responsability to get involved...and for all of you people calling bush a pussy..what the fuck...call these people saying they are going to run away from the draft pussys..thats all i have to say for now

Ajantiskillshot, you are so ignorant its not even funny. I wish people wouldn't post unless they had a freeking clue what they were talking about first. If you had ANY idea about what was going on you might have some points. I will go in order starting with your first dumb remark.

First off....we HAVEN'T found any WMD's!!! Second, Saddam or Iraq never directly threatened the US, if you disagree show me proof.

Ok, here is the most important one, listen close I don't want you to miss it. Your use of "these people" in many of your sentences is stereotypical, the Iraqis never did anything to us, it was Al Queda which is a comparatively small organization of extremists that were exiled from their Arabic countries and is based in Afghanistan. This organization is looked down upon by the Arabic community as a whole.

The war in Iraq is not about terrorism or Iraq, its about money, oil, and revenge against Saddam (who was an Ally of the US not too long ago [or a puppet] however you want to look at it) because of Bush senior. There are no WMD in Iraq, the Iraqi people and government are not members of a terrorist organization.

Police of the world? Who made us that? Ourselves? Pretty grand idea I think. Sounds like a way for the US to expand its influence and get more money to me. And you really think that we should our power through fear? Give me a break, that doesn't last for long, eventually enough people revolt to overthrow the tyrants. ALL nations eventually fall....Egypt, Aztec, Maya, Mesopotamia, Babylon, Roman, English, to name a few. Eventually the United States time will come and it will fall too.

You want to know why the US is the target of terrorist attacks? Its not because of religion, its not because we are the strongest nation in the world. Its because we support Israel, we supply them with money and weapons so they can kill the Palestinians and take the land they have been living on for thousands of years. The Israelis want a jewish only state and won't let the Palestinians live there equally with them witht he same rights which is all the Palestinians want, so they kill each other. The Palestinians are larger in number but not as well armed because the US supplies weapons to the Israelis because its in the US best interest to support them for two reasons: 1. Jews have a lot of power in the US and government and 2. Israel is a foothold for the US in the Middle-east where they can have bases and perform over seas operations.

Point here is that the Israelis are Jews and the Palestinians are Muslim. All of the other Arab nations in the Middle-east are Muslim also so they support Palestine. So since the US supports Israel the Muslims don't like the US government and this extremist group Al Queda is using this to rally Muslims to perform terrorist acts on the US to prove a point to the US government.

Solution:

The US needs to stop supporting Israel and allow everything to take its course there and the terroist acts will stop.

Also the US needs to withdraw from Iraq and allow them to form their own government, the iraqis will not accept any government that is put in place by the US because said government will be puppets of the US. The reason soldiers are dying everyday in Iraq is because we have military in their cities and the population is fighting against them. We have been there too long. How would you like it if you left your house everyday for work and there were military troops and tanks right outside your front door?

Anyway, thats it, take what you want from this but it is the truth from the Arabs point of view in case you want to see it from a different perspective. Alot of what we hear here in the US is propaganda to try to get the US people to back the government but most of it is biased. I wouldn't believe one thing the government in the US says about anything.

F that. I'm moving to Canada.

Jez said it pretty damn well, no need to explain it any further to yet another sheep that feeds on the propoganda machine meals, super sized it seems.

wow, i second that, couldnt have said it any better

I really think its funny how you people are such geniuses that you have the solution to the iraq problem and you dont tell bush!! omg just send him an email saying leave iraq and since he nor anyone else had ever thought about leaving iraq then they will be like OMG!!! we can just leave and they will for sure build a strong government that will help the people...

Dude, they won't do it because it wouldn't be in the US best interest. They would lose out on billions of dollars and they would gain power over these countries. George Bush and the rest of his cabinet are all politicians, they don't care if people are dying if it helps to promote them or give them more power.

Very well said jezebell on your post above but this snippet i have to say is partly untrue, First of all Egypt did not fall they pretty much withered away, the Aztec and Maya civilizations were not tyrannical or evil(well they were evil they just didn't know they thought they were doing good to their gods) but they fell and you know why? Spanish explorers and soldiers killed everylast one of em yes a few servived but their civilization was destroyed and all their gold was stolen. Mesopotania(althought i believe its mesopotania been a while since that history lesson heh) also wethered away infact mesopotania is pretty much like todays america wemon had rights and parents could get divorced if both agreed, the only difference is they had a king. Not sure what happend to babylon but i beleave they were destroyed by a war.Yes romans tranical ways were pretty much stopped that is true. If by english you men't great briton then no, they may have stopped their kings tyrannical ways but their culture did not fall apart.

I agree with you, but I didn't say anything about those nations being tyranical in nature, I just said they eventually all fell. What I meant was they all had great power at one time and now they either don't exist or their power is nothing like what it was. When I say the United States will fall, I don't mean it will cease to exist, I just mean that it will lose its power and some other nation will become the most powerful in the world. Its a historical process that happens age after age, its part of life and nature.

I wish I could give you proof, I read intelligence reports every day, if they are ever declassified maybe I can. Although I am about as neutral as anyone can be on the issue, I do think Iraq will be a better place once everything is said and done. Should we have gone to war for the WMDs? Probably not, especially since we havent found any yet, but thats all hindsight. Once we had gotten into the war, there was no turning around. I dont believe alot of what the anti-war people like michael moore have been saying, but I dont go around calling him names and shit, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, dont call people names and flame them because their view differs from your own. Doing so just shows disrespect to them and yourself.

I agree that everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I for one support the President. If you don't agree with me, that's fine.

I don't really believe that saying we were going into Iraq because of WMD's was a great idea. But, I do believe that without sufficient proof that Saddam destroyed what everyone know he had, it was justifiable per the umpteen hundred resolutions.

I am just frustrated by the press. Everyone has been harping on not finding any WMD's and when we find a bomb with serin gas that the insurgents were using, it's just a blerb on the news and no one mentions it. It seems like everyone is so caught up on the fact that we didn't find anything over there that even if we do, or when we did, it's like the press wants to sweep it under the rug.

I don't think that because we found a bomb that had serin gas it shows that Iraq was going to create a WMD to hit us. But, it does show that he still had the agents to create a weapon if he wanted to.

I agree that there is no need to be name calling or calling people ignorant for having their own opinion. Unless you have some information that the rest of us aren't privy to, which I'm sure that 99.9% of us aren't (Edgar being the .1% that is :D ), we are getting our information from the news and what we hear around work or school. It's not going to be completely accurate.

My 2 cents

Ask yourself how they got serin in the 1st place and it traces right back to your governments front door when either Bush Sr or Regan was supporting Mr Husein both financially as well as with technology.

Edit:

Just a little history, for those that care.

1964-67: Hussein imprisoned for attempting to assasinate the, then president, of Iraq.

1967-69: Hussein joins a right wing political body lead by his cousin.

1969-79: Hussein is head of the secret service in Iraq after his cousins politilcal party usurps power, forcibly.

1979-2004: Hussein forces his own cousin out of the leadership, by force. And we all know where it goes from there.

tiraid

I just want to say... I enjoy reading your posts. If my girlfriend was ever drafted and forced into war, I would gladly take her place... even if I knew I wouldn't return. The Idea of forcing female's into battle is tyrannical.

At the moment, I am 17 years old. Should I be drafted into war, so be it. If my country needs my aid in battle, I will help. I find it completely disrespectful to those that were forced into battle and lost their lives fighting for this country, for someone to be a pussy and flee the country if they are drafted. They should be sentenced to death.

I do however, disagree with the draft for the sole reason it includes women. I also find it sad that we should have to draft, it isn't the best way to send in forces to another country, and it would include many more casualties then nescessary due to lack of training. Most would not be able to endure the hardship's of combat. Lack of supplies, no place to shower, not knowing when or if the next time you will see your other half, or your family. All those things take a toll on your morale.

Those of you that would gladly support your country if they needed your help, whether you agree with the reason or not, I salute you, for the sole reason you are defending america. Those of you that would not... leave, right now... get the fuck out. I will fuck you up in RL.

I am sorry, but invading another country, taking over its resources, and overthrowing its government when said country did not attack us in any way is not defending our country. Those people in Iraq that are resisting the US are fighting us because we are occupying their cities with military troops, they are the ones defending their country. Wouldn't you do the same if the United States was invaded by some military force? I know I would.

Aehm Jezebell .

I think the country belongs to Israel they have founded it and it was taken away from other arabian races.
They had no own country , no place to live.
And then they were killed by the Nazis.
After Palestina was shared into to parts , (one day after yelling out the new state Israel) Palestina attacked Israel.
Israel is very alone between all the other ARABIC countries.
It was never a fault of the USA supporting Israel !
This is the only good thing america ever done ...

How on earth can anyone claim that the former state of Palestine, in which the people that live there have been there for over 6000 years, belongs to the Jews and Israel? Because the they lived there for 300 years about 4000 years ago as conquerors? Come on now.....

the jews got no own state , they only wanted a part of palestina.
They didnt start the war.
Now both states are evil , they do the same shit.
But why dont give a homeless race a home ?

Why should the Palestinians just leave their homes and move somewhere else because the Israelis want that land? If some people came to your home and told you to get out because they lived there 4000 years ago, would you?

Its their land , they bought so much percent of it...
Before the state israel was founded the jews bought much land....

Alright, I think I made my poinit clearly, if you don't understand I am sorry. Think what you want.