Thats what she said.

Nothing like mistake in identity

Saying that all VZ/TZ did was start a server running the PEQ DB and turn on PVP is an insult, not "stating the facts". So, yes you were participating in the flaming. Their team has been responsible for providing the community with some very nice code that they wrote for use on their server. Some of the most notable contributions they have made has been the Hacker Detection system (HUGE help), the IP Limiting, and much more. Look at some of TheLieka's code submissions to see more. While they may base their content off of the PEQ database, I don't even need to play on their server to know that they have made adjustments to it.

PVP in EQ is probably some of the worst PVP ever (IMO), since it was designed to be a PVE game and PVP was just something thrown in later. And PVP in EQEmu which is an incomplete version of EQLive is even worse. So, for them to have a popular PVP server means they probably had to do a fair amount of balancing,bug fixes, and other adjustments. They obviously must be doing something right as I have seen no decent PVP servers able to compete with them by a longshot. If it was as easy as you say, it would be easy to compete with them, but it is obviously not.

Either way, the flaming is over. Flames happened, and we can overlook them as long as they don't keep happening.

I think you PVP guys are just too used to fighting other people :P

When you get your Dev vs. Dev server up, I am gonna corpse camp you Trevis...

Actually, no...that's exactly what he did originally. The server had gained its popularity long before all of those wonderful features we're implemented. Thus, a fact. The server today is nothing like it was a year ago when TheLieka was the full time administrator, both in features and in community.

Also, you do realize most of that code was by Null right?

How else are you gonna win if you don't fight yo?

Careful the eqemu conglomerate of server owners will come after you.

If you zerg I will train and say it was an accident.

That is against the play nice policy /ban.

you cant ban me, ill hack your loginserver and call you bro a lot in vent.

Does the play nice policy apply extra to moderated users?

I am the purgatory of users go me

you do realize that Null and TheLieka are on the same team right? and furthermore, you do realize that the EQEmu community (that means all players, and all GMs, from all servers) benefits much MUCH more as a whole, when the server heads aren't bickering amongst each other over petty, irrelevant issues that could easily be handled and resolved privately.

with that being said, any server dev. that puts in a respectable amount of time into his/her server is going to be offended when they not only have to deal with a player falsely slandering that server, but also and especially when other server devs join in on the action. i know these servers are like our children, but let's all try to lead by example, eh?

Every EQEmu server benefits from every other EQEmu server. people have left VZTZ Server for PEQ, and people have left PEQ for VZTZ. players hop servers until they find the one they like, period. however, if new players discover EQEmu and see a bunch of server devs squabbling.. well, lets just say it doesn't encourage community growth.

Now to focus on some things about only VZTZ that i haven't seen addressed yet..
1)Our rules are very clearly posted and easy to read/find. our GMs are very firm, but very fair, and are ALWAYS willing to listen to a player's opinion on a ban as long as its done respectfully.

2)Our GMs do NOT play on our server. They are NOT allowed to play for any reason, or under any circumstances. Any staff member caught doing this would be instantly banned for blatantly disregarding the integrity of the server/community. doing this is a slap in the face to fellow GMs and isnt tolerated by us (personally, when i get the itch to play, i log on PEQ, Irreverent(sp?), or secrets total anarchy).

3)its a pvp server, emotions run high around here, and players do try to get their enemies banned through false accusations. Our Staff takes cheating/hacking/MQ all very seriously, but we have to be 100% positive before banning a player. many players scream hacks as soon as something happens that they do not understand.

and lastly, 4)EVERY SERVER has players that cheat, more specifically, EVERY GAME has players that cheat. Baseball has cheaters, EQLive had TONS of cheaters, blackjack has cheaters. Anywhere that you have some form of competition between human beings, you will also have people that try to get "ahead of the curve" but taking shortcuts (steroids, MQ, card counting, etc).
on VZTZ, as a staff, we do our very best to identify and then terminate cheaters asap. so please, feel free to log on to the server and look for cheaters (you may end up staying, its that much fun ;-) ). but if do you find any, we'd be happy to check into it and take appropriate action. just the same as im sure any other server devs that care about their server would do.

-Sirken
VZ/TZ Staff

One last thing Yeormom.. posts 38 and 4 contradict themselves.

in post 38 you say:
however, in post #4 you said:
Keep in mind that Post 4 was made before any representatives from VZ/TZ staff (or players), said anything in this thread at all. It was a blatant shot at the staff and the community that resides on the VZ/TZ Server, and it’s not appreciated.

Yeormom, Everyone knows about your server, and while myself and the rest of the staff at VZ/TZ wish you and your staff the best of luck, we do not do so at the expense of you bad mouthing us, our players, and our server in a poor attempt to make your own project look better.
If u put in the work, and your project offers something that players want, they will come to you, and with you they shall stay. But trying to spur community growth by means of slander, and potential player poaching is just not very becoming for a server dev.

Haha, I have nothing to add to this. It's good to see our closest friends Richardo, Image, and Yeormom come out of the woodwork when they're trying to promote a server. The bottom line is this: you guys have project ADD. You get a wild hair in your ass and decide to set up an EQEmu server, spend more time talking shit about other servers - in this case ours (which, I kindly point out, has had a MUCH longer run than any of your previous projects), at which point you may or may not actually bring your project live, then you and your project fades into obscurity within 6 weeks. Everyone else in the community is aware of this concept; I guess I have to be the one to let you in on the joke.

Talk all the shit you want, the players know which projects will be here and which will not. (unless, of course, some of you find another way to attack the public login server and shit in everyone's wheaties - again)

In summary: Make more anonymous forum accounts to agree with yourselves. No one cares about your opinions. :)

Dax

I never said anything bad about your server but thanks for letting me know what side of the issue I am supposed to be on.

lmmfao so now your saying he attacked the loginserver that is just on crappy hardware and breaks alot on its own? wow dude image they really dont like you lol

Not that what TheLieka said needs to be justified here, but the thing you find so funny does have facts to back it up. Doodman caught devn00b crashing the Login Server more than once. Devn00b admitted to it openly (directly to me in IRC at least). Devn00b also said in IRC that if the LS had been crashed that way other than the times that devn00b admitted to crashing it, that it was probably Image doing it. Though, he claims that any time they were crashing it was due to them doing "testing" while developing their own Login Server.

And Aergad, your judge of character isn't exactly the best according to this recent post where your trusted hosting provider gave you the boot and "stole" your work:
http://www.eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27835

So, please if you must criticize the staff here, try to have all of the information before making any claims. Otherwise, please refrain from the cynical comments.

The only reason I went as far as to explain this is because I think it is important that people understand some of the frustrations of the team, and why certain members here might not be shown the respect that we show to all of the normal members. I am honestly a bit surprised that we even tolerate certain people to the point that we have so far. I have so much more to say on this topic that I could write a book about it. But, this is not the place, nor time, for that :P

I was in irc dev admitted to it TWICE then said he didnt know hat image did that isnt saying anything about accusing image of doing it just that he didnt knowhat image did.

Thing is these ttwo have done more for the community in terms of the code base then any staff member presently active and you guys shit all over them.

Yes i know i got boned pretty bad but that was a simple mistake not like i heard any warnings from anyone about the guy.

All im saying is that you know simply by virtue of all the work they have done for the community as a whole they should be given a bit of respect ya know. thats like a doctor saving yoru life you getting off the table and kicking him in the balls repeatedly

It wasnt criticizim by the way im just sayin its not like they were attacking the ls for the whole time it was having issues devnoob said twice TWICE so TheLeika really shouldnt be blaming them for the whole time the ls has been screwing up when everyone says that it was caused by one pretty old crappy hardware plus other things too like the wiki and website as well.

First he said it was 3 times, then days later he said it was 2 times. Conveniently getting less and less each time :P He was caught red-handed, so he had to admit to it lol! How many times did it happen that he didn't get caught for? Would you tell everyone the truth if you were repeatedly crashing the public LS while trying to convince the community to trust you and switch to your LS? Even if it was only those 2 or 3 times, I find it interesting that the exact same technique that Devn00b used to crash the Login Server was also used to repeatedly and intentionally crash almost every popular Server on the Public LS just days after he had crashed the LS.

I don't know where you are getting this information. Have you seen the hundreds of SVN updates in just the past 6 months? About 1/3rd of the current change log is from the past 6 months since the new SVN was put into place, and the change log goes back to 2003! So, out of the past 6 years, 1/3rd of that work has been done in the past 6 months...Impressive to say the least, IMO.

Even though the current changelog does not include the full log from the very beginning, even if you were to total up the number of changes in either quantity or quality, I think you will find that your statement is false. I don't think anyone in the entire EQEmu changelog history (even prior to what the current one shows) even comes close to how much KLS has done for the project. Next would probably be FatherNitwit. So, again, read up before making blind statements.

The only advice I can give here is that you try trusting people who have earned it. If someone comes out of nowhere and offers you something for free, chances are you will get what you paid for.

It doesn't matter how much you give if you can't prove yourself to be worthy of trust and respect.

It is funny that it is still running on the same hardware and yet somehow seems to be MUCH better than it was during all of that drama.

*golfclap*

Dax

not really it still does go down it is just bounced faster now and actually i do have changelogs prior to 0.6 versions of the emulator which goe back heck probably almost all the way and most of your basecode was done by them just because its tweaked doesnt mean they didnt lay the foundation you know. without that foundation they helped lay there would be nothing for anyone to build upon give credit where credit is due.

I read all the posts about it, yeah running on the same hardware and kls' answer was to shut the site down entirely for what two weeks or so because apache was using too many resources between the wiki and the forums mysql queries?

in any court aside from the admitted attacks the rest is circumstantial is all im saying. So yes to quote you... before making accusations have facts aside from 2 or 3 instances that were admitted to. There is no proof it was either of them all the times it crashed and its been admitted by the person takling care of the ls now that most of the issues were related to apache and mysql and lack of server resources. Unless of course you are calling kls a liar in her posts?

Thats all im saying is you are accusing them because devnoob admitted to it 2 or 3 times your blaming the whole thing ont hem because the emu staff arent too thrilled that there is a new public loginserver system out for anyone to use. not based on proof that they had anything to do with the long term issues with the loginserver.

I never said that they didn't earn respect in the past. I wish they had kept that respect and remained with the project this whole time, but neither is the case. They lost their respect long ago when they burned their bridges here. It doesn't matter how much anyone helps out if they can't keep from turning on the community at any given point.

They didn't leave the community willingly. They had their moderator or admin status (whatever) on the forums removed and were removed from the project forcefully years ago for having malicious intent against the project and/or community. Maybe one of them would be kind enough to lay out all of the details of why they were removed from the project in the first place, but I wouldn't expect the full truth either way.

By KLS shutting down apache, it proved that the LS was stable enough to remain on the current hosting as long as we move the website to new hosting at some point. I much prefer having the forums down and the LS up if it is a choice between the 2 of them. The final resolution to the whole LS issue is still in the works. The site was kept down as a temporary solution while other options were being considered. At least the LS was working, which is top priority. I still don't have any kind of ETA on when the next steps will be taken.

You are aware that the way that Devn00b was crashing the LS was by sending malformed packets to the LS. This means he probably has some code to simulate a very simple client connection and was able to write a structure that was not accepted by the LS, which is what caused it to crash. My best guess is that maybe they have a copy of the Simple Client source code, or some other old code that simulates a client connection. I know I have seen doodman link screenshots of a EQ Client simulation he had made, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Image has something similar. Either way, it has to be something other than a normal EQ client that they were using for this "testing". I don't really know why they would want to simulate a client if they are building a LS to be designed to work with Titanium in the first place.

Basically, I don't know exactly how they did it, but I do know that it was a malformed packet that caused those crashes. Then, 3 days after those admitted crashes happened, I read reports on the PEQ forums of their world server crashing repeatedly. Their server was restarted several times and the problem repeated and then simply stopped as mysteriously as it had started. A couple hours after I first read about the issue on PEQ, I happened to be looking at the processes on Storm Haven and noticed that my world server had just started bouncing at random. I then got reports that all of the popular servers were sporadically popping off and on the Public LS list. This is because the same thing was happening to all of the Popular Public Servers. None of the servers with 0 or 1 players were having this issue, only the ones that get higher player numbers. It didn't take long for me to figure out that this was an intentional attack on our servers and I alerted Cavedude immediately.

After investigation, their team found that the world servers were being crashed by, you guessed it, Malformed Packets! The direct result of this exploit/hack was why Revision 396 was put in as a quick fix.

This was an obvious attack and anyone who would do something like this does not deserve to be a part of this community. The simple facts are these:

1. Devn00b had openly admitted to using this exact same technique to crash the Public LS 3 days prior to this whole incident happening.

2. Only a very small percentage of the community is aware that such exploits like this exists and even less of them would even know where to begin to be able to abuse them.

3. By making the Public LS look bad, unstable, and appear to be causing actual servers to crash, only someone hosting their own Login Server would have anything to gain from doing this.

4. Devn00b obviously already had something in place that could send malformed packets at any part of the connection process, so this would have been insanely simple for him to do.

5. This was barely 3 days after the same attack had occured on the Public Login Server itself, which was caused by Devn00b.

I don't know how there can be any doubt at all that it was them.

I certainly don't blame all of the LS issues on them, but the part they played should not be ignored. There were multiple issues with the site and LS that were all results of different things. One issue was caused by hackers who were flooding the site with requests and bogging it down so much that it hosed the LS. That was the initial issue we saw where the site would take forever to load and then the LS would still be reachable if you tried non-stop for like 10 minutes.

To battle that issue, doodman changed some stuff, which I believe started the "bad username/password" issue after MySQL would fail.

And somewhere in there, the LS was just crashing at random even while the Forums were up and speedy, which was the result of someone crashing it. I don't know how many times it happened, but IMO, that doesn't matter considering the world crashing attack that happened.

If a new Login Server had come from well-trusted, respected, long-time members of the community, then I think we would all be ecstatic to get it. Since that is not the case, I don't think it is right to not give our community a warning about the source of these Login Servers. Heck, you already lost your entire LS database to someone that now has all of their usernames and passwords! That is just the beginning of what would happen if this was to become widespread.

While it may seem like we are being controlling about the Login Server, it is actually that we are trying to find the best way to keep the communities passwords and other information safe and provide them with a reliable and trustworthy service.

Ok well I do have to say that sof client crashes the worldserver to and looks a great deal like malformed packets as well which is why i am in the process of disabling it entirely till world can understand what the client is sending.

About my LS I want to state it was not my idea to store users passwords unencrypted and once My access to the servers was removed i moved quickly to inform my users of the compromise and they dont seem to care so, that one is on them. But I do see your point which is precisly why I an I alone have access to my ls database as of this moment and that is the way it is going to stay.

I do understand your POV I am nerely saying like any exploit once one person figures it out well then all the script kiddies gotta try it.

I really do think they are genuinly trying to help the community with the new ls, and I think they should be given a chance, dont condem people for mistakes of the past. Yes im sure they screwed up in the past image has admitted to me he did so but he was young as we all were at one time.

It should be noted that My issues were not a result of anything devnoob or image coded in their ls I will say that.

Instead fo pointing fingers and such why dont we all try working together, Forks included we dont have to all be super activ ehere to have something to contribute. forks can coincide with the main project and collaboration can take place.

Even if they were crashing these things that inturn helped the community because the problems were found and are in the process of being fixed. I try to be a silver lining kind of a guy usually.

Even with what happened to My project I look at it as now i have total control over it and it was actually a good thing in a way that it happened.

Thats all Im saying people screw up they dont need to be repeatedly crucified for it.

I have been using the LS they made since before it was officially released I have had 0 issues with it its stable and secure and all in all a good program IMO.

Yes I am playind devil's advocate but i think if we all work together rather then against one another it will help everyone as a whole in the long run

I really don't see what SoF has to do with any of this other than the fact that it has been my priority for months to help get the emulator upgraded to work with a newer client and you are trying to make a personal attack on me through my work (and the work of others who have helped). If you don't like what we have done with SoF, then don't use it, but don't try to relate it to this discussion in any way. If you think you can discredit me by saying the work I have done on SoF is bad for the project, then that is just ridiculous.

If you are trying to say that SoF had anything to do with the world crashes that ALL of the popular servers (including many that didn't even have SoF enabled on them) were experiencing, then again, that is just ridiculous. I have worked with the SoF client from the very beginning and I know what it can and cannot do, and the crashes that we were seeing had nothing to do with it. The crashes were happening while the client was making a session request and I can definitely speak for Storm Haven that the SoF client was working 100% fine for requesting sessions when whoever it was was crashing the world.

If you think that SoF causes world crashes still, then I don't know what you are doing with it to cause them. I have been running it on my server for months now and anything that could have caused a crash has been resolved as far as I am aware of. I haven't seen world crashes on Storm Haven in quite some time and I only use SoF now. Maybe if haven't updated your server code in a while, you might run into some of the old issues, but as I said, most of them have been resolved for a while now.

Not that you would do it, but one of my main concerns with multiple people running Login Servers is that they could be abused extremely easily. I am sure you have people register with their email addresses, and not everyone knows better than to use the same password for their LS account that they use for their email. So, if a LS was to get hundreds or even thousands of registered users, there is a good chance that some of them may have given the same password to get into their email account. If someone running a Login Server was doing so with malicious intent, it would be all too easy for them to take advantage of people, find other personal information and probably even to steal from them.

Private information (gaming or otherwise) should not be taken lightly, and by giving everyone access to run their own Login Server, there are bound to be security risks. When handling any private information, there should be at least decent security to ensure that it stays safe and private. And, if extra precautions aren't going to be taken, the users should be made aware of that so they know to take their own safety measures (which they really should be doing automatically in the first place).

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to here. But, if you are referring to the malformed packet crashing the world servers, that information was not disclosed until after it happened. The Login Server one was mentioned, but the issues with the client itself were not. The source is open, so if someone had really wanted to exploit that issue, and knew what they were doing, they could have done it at any point. It happening 3 days after the LS crashes is extremely unlikely to be just a coincidence.

When their project had any chance of getting some of this community to move to it, they mentioned that they would probably allow "custom LS builds" for a price. So, they would have been charging people for them to remove the restrictions in the Login Server code that they had put there in the first place. Once it was clear that the issues with the EQEmu Login Server were going to resolved, only then did they give out the unrestricted version. If you want to help an opensource, free project, you don't do it by creating an alternative to it and charge for it :P

I am almost always willing to give people a second chance, depending on how bad their first offense was. I really wish they could have come back and proven themselves respectful and trustworthy. This project would no doubt benefit from someone with coding skills like Image has. But, if it comes at a cost of deceit and drama, it just isn't worth it. Since I was not around for the first issue with these 2, I couldn't exactly hold it against them. But, after seeing the recent issues and actions, I think it is clear that they have something against the entire team and are willing to go to great lengths to show that.

I can agree with you on this one. It wasn't their fault for what happened to you. But, I am extremely hesitant to use anything that is closed source and isn't from a highly respected source.

There is no fork (sounds like something from the Matrix). There is no secondary project going on. There is just EQEmu as far as I am concerned. Now, if someone else started their own SVN, or started releasing non-EQEmu binaries or something, then that would be a fork. But, as of now, it is all just normal EQEmu. Just because you use your own private LS doesn't make you a fork. That would be like saying that people who use the old mini-login are all forks.

Other than the fork statements, I agree with you on this one too. We should all just work together and stop the drama. Drama is such a time consuming waste. I could certainly be doing much better things with my time. I will never push for drama. All I try to do is discuss the issues at hand. If all we do is delete/lock threads, and suppress drama, it will never get resolved. I am more than willing to play moderator to see any drama to the end in a reasonable fashion.

I consider myself an extreme optimist and always try to look on the bright side. I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt if there is any doubt in me to give. While you may have somewhat of a point here, it is still completely ridiculous to even say such a thing. That statement doesn't do anyone any good. You are saying that we should love the hackers because they forced the problem to get fixed? If someone really wants to help, they help without hurting in the process. The issues with the LS were due to sick attacks and anyone who would do something like that is just a bad seed. Effecting thousands of people for weeks on end just so someone can get revenge or get their way is just too selfish for words.

[QUOTE=Aergad;167936]Even with what happened to My project I look at it as now i have total control over it and it was actually a good thing in a way that it happened.

Sometimes learning the hard way is the best way. You won't soon forget that lesson I hope. I still think that the real lesson you should have learned is that you shouldn't trust people who haven't earned your trust.

If people consistently screw up and cause problems, which in turn wastes other people's time and efforts, then yes they do deserve what they asked for.

While that may be true, a closed source program could always be hiding something that could come back to bite you in the end. I really hope that isn't the case here, but you can never truly be too cautious about that sort of thing.

I can play devil's advocate all day, obviously. But I would honestly much rather see the drama gone for good and for things to get back on track. Already since KLS has gotten access to the LS, things have been better than they have for quite a while. I am sure once the LS issues are all finalized and taken care of, people will quickly forget about this whole issue. I knew that would happen from the start and as soon as the LS was back up and stable, the drama suddenly stopped. Since some issues hadn't been fully resolved, I knew something like this was bound to pop up at some point. So, I figured it would be good to clear things up while I had the chance. I don't pretend to know everything that goes on around here, but I will say that I know my fair share :P

As much as I love a good pissing contest, can we please get back to the real focus of this thread...which is how much of a tool Richardo is?

I thought the point of the thread was to discuss the Tallon/Vallon Zek server, :x

Maybe I'm in the wrong thread.

well where to start lol ahh closed source programs... well for one the official loginserver tracks every player on ever server down to the zone they are in why it does this i have no idea however i found the code and the opcodes in world and zone that accomplishes this so the official ls is doing precisly what you warned against.

Minilogin has been used for quite some time as a closed source program theres no telling what information that really sends i suppose i could look back in the old old ls code i found and find out but even still the point im getting at is that there are secrets even the people handling the official ls have kept reguarding its operation.

What possible purpose does it server for the loginserver to track that kind of player data i dunno.

Everytime i see a user using SoF ( btw i just compiled my server on linux using the latest svn source) I get a garbled mess of output that is just raw packet data being sent to the worldserver but it doenst understand the packet so it kinda has a coniption fit lol thats all i was sayin

Im only disabling it for now till the client functionality is more completed where world doesnt spazz like that lol

thing about My issue is this guy was hosting it supposedly in a professional datacenter he owned the company that was supposedly a reputable company that handled financial transactions and so on and so forth for major companies. All that made it easy to trust the guy. even still i can say had he not yanked my project out from under me the way he had, everything was secure i mean what are the odds that the guy runing the datacenter would be a completely immature tool anyway lol

anyway yeah lol its too early for me to think much clearer need coffee lmmfao

EDIT: That just got you a one week ban.

I really dont know what to say about all of this...

I personally tried to form some sort of relations with other server staff in hopes of working together on things to improve the community, such as sharing information on who was banned cross-server and why. The fact that staff from other servers, would come onto the public forum and slander people's EverQuest servers that are worked on and run free of charge shocks me.

For example Bane of Life. I personally notified you guys about the EQEMU password trojan that was embedded in the website the moment I was sent the information from the informant in Lucid Vision, in hopes that you would change all of your passwords to avoid the email account hijackings that our staff had to go through.

You state on your website that our server is hack infested, yet when I attempted to inform you that many of the registered users on your forum are ones that have been banned for using 3rd party software, you blow me off like you dont even care.

Hell, we even built a MQ hack detector and distribute it to openly.

as for our database, it is far from "generic" in my opinion. Not only am I told by players that come to play here ( many in hopes of a PvE duplicate some day ) that it is the most live-like experience they have gotten out of EqEmu, but some people have even wanted to purchase a copy of the database ( denied of course ). To me, that says something good.

In the end, the fact that you, as server devs, come onto a public forum and bash another server openly only proves to me the type of arrogant, immature community you plan to run.

GM Gronkus