In case you missed it, RangerDown shared a link about the draft. This is the other side of the story, I don't think anyone should talk about the draft, pro or con, without reading this first. You might end up feeling a little stupid - I did :). This is just another link among countless others, so read this and weigh the facts. I no longer think there will be a draft after reading this.


Ranger down later gives this link
http://www.eqluclin.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5060

On a side note, it was said earlier that the serin gas found in Iraq was only there because Reagan or Bush gave it to them in the first place. I have no information to dispute that, and I personally don't care either way. Iraq used to be an ally of ours, then our national interest changed. The problem isn't where they got it, it's that they still have it. The UN, who many on this board think is the greatest thing since sliced bread and to whom you want to hand over the sovereignty of the United States (or at least the US military), demanded that Iraq disposed of all WMDs (includes serin). They didn't. The fact that they may or may not have gotten it from the US in the first place is irrelevant. Anyway, I think you just made that up about it comming from the US just because you liked the idea, not that there was any evidence whatsoever.

If you haven't noticed already, I am a conservative. As a conservative I admit whole heartedly, George Bush has not given me a decent reason for being in Iraq. On the other hand this is what I see. Who is it that our troops are fighting in Iraq? If you're answer is "Iraqi freedom fighters", that may be true. They may be Iraqi. They may be the average citizen who wants us out. The media sure wants to paint that picture. My problem with that is that members of the national guard upon return dispute that. They say the average Iraqi is happy with what has been done. Sure, they want the US to leave a soon as possible so they can get on with their lives, who can blame them? But they are not picking up their weapons and fighting the US, nor are they killing members of the Iraqi interrim government. The people who are fighting the coalition and the Iraqi government are using terrorist tactics - car bombs, roadside bombs, suicide bombs. They are trained terrorists. Isn't it strange, that in the war against terror, the US finds itself fighting terrorists? This is what I think. I think the US is using Iraq, again. We used it before when we supported Saddam Hussein to further our national interests. Now we are using it again to flush out terrorists so we can fight them somewhere besides our own soil, and with our military instead of with our citizens. Ousting Saddam was a bonus. Stopping "Oil for Food" money from funding terrorists was a bonus. Not being able to recover or find evidence of the destruction of the WMDs we know were there was a bummer. The bottom line is, what we are doing in Iraq is fighting the war on terror for OUR good, not Iraq's. This is my oppinion. It isn't set in stone. I change my mind whenever I hear new facts. To say that Iraq doesn't get anything good out of this is to be purposefully narrow minded (that's a good definition of partison). The people we are fighting are the ones who get nothing good out of a free Iraq. The free world should rejoice at Iraq's new found freedom. Maybe the reason Bush hasn't given a satisfactory answer is because he is just to afraid to say that we are doing this for our good.

This is sick...
 

Image, I would have had more respect for you if you had just posted this and said, "Wtf!!!" but instead you posted that you wanted people to send an e-mail opposing the bill...

That is an abuse of influence, there are probably 100 children who use this site, who did just that, merely because you said you wanted them to...

As for the draft, War is inevitable, and sometimes a necessity. I am not going to into my thoughts about Iraq, but what is done is done... And although our armies are one of the most technologically advanced, it is not very big... China boasts an army that is quite larger than ours...

Half of these posts are as I said just mindless followers of Image and the EQEmu devs...

Most are one sentence posts, that don't really say or prove anything, they are just there to show that they are kissing ass, as requested...

It irks me that so many people feel comfortable playing "armchair athlete" with today's politics... Unless you have run a country (and I haven't either!), you have no idea what kind of pressure you would be under...

Tiraid made a good point,

But, there were a few who did want to fight, and if a Draft was instated and it excluded women, once everything was said and finished, that would just be more fuel to the fire... Whoever was in office at the time, would be attacked for that... I am unsure what has happened in this country, but WE (the global community) have come to a point where if EVERYONE's views aren't being supported then it's WRONG.. And hey, screw morality, who needs morality when we have freedom of speech (which we will abuse and take out of context every day of our lives...)

Well here's an idea, get 15 or 20 friends together and try to decide on ONE place to go eat...

One last thing, and I am throwing civility out the window for this because this just pisses me off...

Pyrix - [quote]I

Check Snopes. This whole draft thing has been declared an urban legend after they researched it. After Nam (another asinine police action) there's no way in hades they'll make the same mistake again.

i sent this to my mom who sent it to as many people as she could think of and we got it to some local news places

hopefully it'll help


just scanning over the posts i saw something about palestine and israel: america should stop supporting israel

check out english.aljazeera.net for uncensored news

Rabaril

don't be hypocritical.

the US has pushed for gender equality for the last century. if it excluded women, then it just wouldn't be fair at this point in time. having equal rights to men comes with advantages but also consequences.

actually. if the US government was a real democracy and not a wealthy persons brown-nosing game, then everyone's views would matter. if they had mattered, the iraq war would not have happened.

if everyone doesn't support something, then it might just be a good idea to hear their reasoning. don't be so one-sided.

a lot of those people who died could have done great things. now they're dead.

for you as well. beside of your immaturity and ignorant arguments, you violate three forum rules. (Basic Rules - remember to read before posting!)

iraq didn't attack the us. george w. was making up for what daddy didn't get a chance to do. afghanistan may have been justified, given al-Qaida actually exists.

from what you've said, it seems like you're linking the war in iraq to the attacks on sept. 11. the protestors opposing the war didn't think it was wrong to "stand up" to them. they just saw farther than the present and peaceful ways to go about things. who knows where this "war on terror" will go. i really hope not ww3. there are a lot of terrorists out there, certainly expanding beyond the middle east. if this is truly a war on terror and not some big public diversion of attention from something else, then i feel sorry for all the little kids growing up.

i wouldn't rule out the US having something to do with those attacks.


it is a good idea to not argue on a topic you don't know much about or are one-sided about. try to keep an open mind.


i'm not defending the person whose opinions were attacked by you and i'm neither a republican or a democrat just so you know. i can actually listen to both sides of a story and then challenge both from the inbetween area to find out the truth. being opinionated like you are proves how close-minded you are.

i hope the time i took actually helps you think and find out things for yourself,not just believe everything others tell you.

this topic wasn't intended for heated arguments. it was made to support the youth of america so that tens of thousands of college age people trying to make their lives as they want don't get sent off to get shot up while wealthy politicians sit around and run a puppet show.

Sorry, I just had to laugh at that....

Throughout this whole conflict, I knew that I could count on aljazeera to report what our news wasn't telling us.... I knew that I could trust their reporting to be unbiased....

Sorry, just had to say that... it's one of the funniest comments that I've heard in a while

:D

Well sorry Rabaril didn't know I was the new PR guy for EQEMu. Anywho, people need to understand news is biased no matter where you go and if you blindly follow everything you are told chances are you don't know the truth of any situation. This is simply questioned like so: How do we know X is true?

If your responses are:
I heard it in the news
A friend
Government
Newspaper
Magazine

or something similar, this can all be biased, or not true.

How could people on the west coast know that the two towers actually fell when they did? Television, radio, but I think everyone remembers in the early 1950's when they had a radio broadcast of an alien invasion and people really did take it seriously and ending up commiting suicide or just full out panic.

Do not take things so blindly, this is a warning to people who don't think outside the box :)

Remember in WWII how the only newspapers telling the truth came from Germany? Americans just lined up to get those German newspapers so they could know what was REALLY going on in Europe.

Here's the real problem with the US. It's not the terrorists. Not to play down a tragety, but if we really were interested in saving lives, we would ban cigaretts and ignore the terrorists. Terrorists don't kill as many American's each year as smoking, not even close.
The real problem with the US is the people who believe the terrorists. check out english.aljazeera.net for uncensored news. This is so wrong... I'm at a loss for words. Aljazeera is sympathetic toward our enemies. But it all goes back to people believing what they want to believe. People who read and agree with Aljazeera are people who hate America and like to see it degraded. These people believe nothing that America does is right. They want to give the sovereignty away to the United Nations, so they can make all the decisions, because the United Nations can do no wrong, of course. I don't understand why so many people in the US believe that everything we do is wrong and everything everyone else does is right. Where did this self-hatred come from? I perfer terrorists over these people. At least terrorists don't have a vote. If we could just be rid of all of our enemies within our borders, our fellow citizens who hate us, then terrorists could have no power over us. But our internal arguing over whether it is even ethical for us to protect ourselves gets in the way of our even being effective. Our enemies within this country are more powerful then our enemies without.

And, for the last time, I hope, I will address women in the draft. Most of you seem to agree that drafting women is wrong, but there are those few comments that bug me. Some people have said that if we don't include women in the draft (if there was one), then some people would be mad. They would make little signs and protest, maybe even burn certain articals of clothing. If drafting woman is wrong, then it is wrong! So what if someone is offended by it! You don't have to please everyone. In today's world, if you do anything and someone isn't offended by it... well, then you probably didn't actually do anything, did you? There have always been people offended by all things good. It used to be that the good people would ignore them. How cowardly you would have to be to send your wife, girlfriend, sister or daughter to war because you were afraid not to! Because you were afraid of who would protest and call you sexist! Oh no! Listen, if something is right, then it is right. Who cares what other people think. You can't let them scare you into doing the wrong thing. So answer this for yourself, "is it right for me to send my wife, mother, girlfriend or sister to war?". When you have answered it for yourself, unafraid of consequences, then stick with your answer! It's called integrety. It's called conviction! Have some!

Then there is this argument:

the US has pushed for gender equality for the last century. if it excluded women, then it just wouldn't be fair at this point in time. having equal rights to men comes with advantages but also consequences.

Again, this is so wrong, I don't know where to start. Its like you want to punish woman for wanting equal rights. A radical, fringe group of women fought for their right to be equal with men in the military. Most women do not agree with them. Most men do not agree with them. To say that woman should be drafted because a very few extreemists want them to be is ludicrous. This is the tail wagging the dog. It really is too bad that mainstream America is so quite and lets small groups of radicals have so much influence over them. It comes back to this, if drafting women is wrong, then it is wrong, even though someone may be offended.

the reporters for al-Jazeera aren't terrorists. they're everday people like you and me making a living doing what they love best. i'm sure some employees of the news agency are sympathetic toward terrorists because of similar religious backgrounds, morals of their culture, or family origins in those areas, but that doesn't mean that they all are. you made a huge, biased generalization there.

example: david bloom wasn't a soldier even though he was crossing iraq with them. and i don't exactly like hearing about the death of a soldier, but that doesn't mean that i agree with what they're doing.

there's nothing to agree with about al-Jazeera. they provide news stories, not take political sides. i do read al-Jazeera when i want accurate, up-to-date news from the Middle East. you certainly never hear about how many teenagers are shot in palestine by israelis because they threw rocks at them on american news channels. wrong again when you say people who rely on al-Jazeera for news in the Middle East hate America and like to see it degraded. you obviously haven't ever looked into their news because they don't degrade america in any way.

me personally, i don't like the US government. it's always either republican or democrat and rich brown-nosing people who get elected. that's the biggest joke. it's not good to play games with something as delicate as a country with approximately 293 million people in it.

the united nations is a good idea. it's always better to have input from more than one source if you're making a decision that could effect the whole global population. the US government has already displayed it is incapable of making good decisions on its own more than once (similar to the way you're making decisions). most recently, the iraq war: a lot of countries disagreed with it. they were ignored and the war started anyway. so, you have radicals through the world that already have a problem with the US because they're generalizing that everyone is a christian that hates them and now its own allies are upset. not a good idea.

i don't understand why you're saying this. there isn't self-hatred because people make decisions which disagree with what the US government is doing.

you prefer terrorists over protestors with signs? head to iraq, find a group of radicals (like the ones who decapitated Nick Berg-video can be found on the internet), and see how long you're alive.

you shouldn't be so quick to shut out people who disagree. their story deserves recognition. people who protested the war in iraq weren't against protecting themselves and their country. they just didn't want it to turn into a war. the truth is, people like you are more like enemies to the country because you are apparently a warmongerer from the statements you've made.

yes they are more powerful. they're the rich people running the government that are incapable of making good decisions everytime they are forced to make one for a vote.

i don't agree about anything having to do with the draft but if the US government brought it back, it would have to include women now. i didn't make the decision to include women, the government did--so be upset with them. i'm 17 years old and i definitely wouldn't want to go if they started the draft and i dont think other women with dependents should even be considered (though they would but be very low on the list)

you've got that reversed. those small groups of "radicals" are almost always ignored.

i'm not defending the fact that the draft is in consideration again or that women are included. but i took an unbiased look at it, unlike you and Rabaril. it's too bad you get so upset over people who don't agree with everything you believe is right. shows how much you actually read into my previous post. :D

it's good to know you're going to go through life believing everything that's shoveled into your mouth instead of finding the truth for yourself.

damn, nyja is hot.

I dont know if this has been said before..

About women and the draft, its good that they are included in that they want to be treated equally, then they should be subject to everything a man is subject to. Another reason that I do not feel bad about saying this is that woman are not allowed to serve in combat. Yes, they would be drafted into the military, but they would server in jobs that would keep them off the front lines. I am a US Marine, and as long as I have been in I have yet to see a female in an infantry unit. The closest I have personnaly seen them is in communication units, which is usually well out of harms way.

The idea of sending a woman to kill or be killed just doesnt fit well with anybody including the military, so they are kept as well out of harms way as possible.

Think again man, my wife is over in Iraq right now doing roving patroles and doing house clearing, and she is a Generator mechanic.........

There is a front line in todays battle field?

There in the infantry now too, at least in the army. There is and has been females in the mech inf units on Fort Hood for years now, over the last couple years there starting to head into the infantry units as well, not as infantry just support roles but still the infantry's support is right with them.

My last unit was 100% mental health professionals and they were over there in fire fights and doing patroles with the MP's / infantry and there 90% officers and 80% females. So in todays "modern" battle field yes women are in harms way. Heck even the cooks are out doing patroles now.


Women have been pushing for equil rights for many years now, for anyone to say this should happen cause there women is setting that movment back decades. I wish every day it was me over there and not my wife, but she keeps telling me this is the way its sopose to be, equil means equil not equil sometimes.

The Draft can be good, what happens when it doesnt pass, and no one is in the army?
Were screwed =/
Hopefuly we dont gotz another president that sends us to war.

I voted against it tho, cuz no way in hell im going to go get shot at, i just say NUKE IRAQ!!!!

Yay! Finally someone I agree with!

I completely oppose the draft. I don't think anyone should be forced to go off to what might be their death. There is no reason to have to force people to fight for a country that they might consider shitty, when there are so many people that are willing to do so.

Also, anyone that is saying that women shouldn't be included in the draft (if it comes to pass) is a sexist. Someone brought up the point of "would you want your sister, or daughter, or girlfriend, or wife going off to war, possibly to die" (paraphrased quote, sorry if it's not quite right). My answer to that: Hell no. But you know what? I also wouldn't want to see my brother, or my dad, or any of my friends go to off to war, possibly to die either. Who decided that it's okay for the country's men to get killed, but if anyone mentions the same thing happening to women they're suddenly shunned. It's rediculous.

One last thing before I go: I can't believe nobody mentioned (at least in the first 2 pages, after that I got bored with people bitching and decided to post my own response) that if the draft passes, even people in school aren't safe. It always used to be that if you were currently enrolled in school, you couldn't be drafted. That's gonna change if this thing passes...
/shrug Just thought I'd throw it out there.

*NOTE* The views expressed in this post are only the poster's opinion, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone else. Because these are this poster's opinion, they are, in no way, "wrong", and any attempt to say they are will be completely ignored because that will clearly prove that you're too fucking retarded to continue living. Thank you.

Couple of very nice statements are listed here. I really don't believe anyone outright says, "Hey lets draft our young men and women for a war." It is seen as a need for the greater good of our country, our freedoms, and our way of life for us, our family and friends, and our future people growing up and yet to be born.

On the other hand, the draft does push us to support our country in a way that says it means something to us. Look at all the men and women who actually gave their lives for us to establish this nation and have help defend it, or others seeking the same thing we already have helped.

As far as bashing Bush, most people sound like they listen to the media, who never give you the full and true story. There are alot of things that Bush may wish to do, but he has to have the APPROVAL of the congress to do. It just doesn't happen because any ONE president wishes it so. We give our presidents too much credit and too little credit.

As far as Iraqi, and how it is handled. If we had another nation coming to our doorstep to oust a president that was killing our people by the 100's of thousands, and gassing people we would praise them. However, at the same time, we would have those who gained from that leadership who would still be able to cause a great deal of trouble by all the terror they would cause upon the public to help, to enlist terrorist from other nations, and those still in the country. Couldn't you see the havoc hands full of people could cause all across this country to any one nations army if they wanted. Too easy to make them look bad, if they are abiding by any acts of decent warfare.

Shouldn't judge any president in a hard situation like Iraqi. It was never going to be easy helping them. They have been oppressed within and on all sides for well over 30 yrs.

Just a quick statement to the one who is German. I don't believe as many people think of Germans with Hitler in mind. I have lived in Germany for 10 years, and it is one of the few countries I TOTALLY love. The people are awesome, and the culture is something to appreciate. Give some of us more credit than that. Germany has alot to offer.

Agree concerning women. It should be choice only on serving. I think it hurts moral, and it isn't wise as a nation to send the women who have the hardest responbility on the earth to such conflicts. They have and raise our future leaders, professionals, and young responsible men and women of the nation.

Last thought, we are not accountable to the U.N. Whether people want to acknowledge it or not. The U.N. did not create our nation. The U.N. does not exist as any entity that supports the U.S. Period! They are actually more corrupt and supportive of nations that would take away our freedoms, right to own property, right to bear arms, and our rights to live soverign.

Without the support of the U.S. the U.N. would not even exist. We are and have always been the largest contributor. WHY?!

It's sad to see our nation being twisted by the media and all it's lies. Wonder if we ever had UNBIAS media in our lifetime.

That is my say.....at the moment I do support Bush! Not an easy job! Just remember....congress has not only the power to do their own thing, but to stop things he might wish to help us. They have their own agenda too.

i'm joining the navy before i turn 18 anyways~ i dont care either way, draft = easier on the people who want to be there imo, because they're more likely to be advanced heh

Not to take away from the subject of drafting women, but back to jezebell's point. Arguing over whether Israel belongs to Palestine or RJfAtW (Random Jews from Around the World) is a pointless argument, and it comes down to you think one way or the other. Personally, I think the country belongs to Palestine, regardless of any UN agreement or US/Jewish decision.

When it comes to the draft, I personally oppose it since it includes women. I don't consider myself a sexist, but I do think the sexes differ in many fundamental ways. I'm not a Phyllis Schlafly, but the sexes ARE different, women are better at some things and men are better at others. When it comes to women in the military, maybe I'm conservative when it comes to this issue, but I disagree.

However, when it comes to the war in Iraq, I have to completely agree with Jezebell. It is becoming harder and harder to justify the war in Iraq, simply because all of the reasons that we (the public) were given by Fox News and MSNBC news and CNN have fallen apart. From Colin Powel's anthrax speech in front of the UN to the "transfer of power" in 4 days, the Iraq war simply isn't justified.

When it comes down to it, what country fulfill's Bush's "requirements" for invasion?

Can you guess what country I'm thinking of.....

This country has a well documented nuclear program.
This country has never signed a nuclear proliferation treaty.
This country terrorizes its own citizens.
This country herds people into refugee camps.
This country tears down people's homes in order to "root out terror"
This country commits terrorist acts against civilians.
This country is building a wall to completely seal itself off from civiilians attempting to return to their homes.

What country is it? Iraq?
Fuck no, its Israel.

Just my 2 cents

Bush is a dumbass. Plain and simple.

So, if the draft is truly reinstated, do you all think there will be another Hippie/Protest/Drug subculture type ordeal, to protest the war?

Fuck war...

I got an E-mail from a friend and it had this link to a web site that gives alot of insite to what our enimies in Iraq are trying to do and what thier plans are, hope it help answer some of your questions.

http://www.insiderreport.net/clash_1-2.html

You guys are so freaking ignorant.

While this may be true, it doesn't contribute shit to the thread.

Don't keep up this habit. <3

IMO this thread needs to go to off topic. It has nothing to do with Emu.

Personally I'd like to see it pig penned but that's just my biased self :o

Take it up with image.

Yo! Image!

OT this sheeit! :lol:

ahhh only in the usa can we have a prez. with 4th grade grammar skills.
.... and another thing kerry protested against vietnam or should i say our troops in vietnam. hell we didnt want to be there either
he could have at least supported our troops.
even though vietnam was a huge screw up there is no reason to go against your fellow patron!
hell we might as well turn into a communist nation with either of these fools in office.

Politically protesting the reasons behind sending troops to war is NOT the same as not supporting your troops! Don't EVER try to lump the two together, it sets a VERY DANGEROUS precedent!

And the quote at http://www.luclin.org pretty much sums up why I say dangerous precedent.

your probably right but i still wouldent trust either of them
as far as i could throw a hill giant :twisted:


p.s that link is sad but so very true...

Draft thing is never going to be voted.
 

Face it the draft will never be voted in again. Saying the draft will be voted in is a bunch of anti war, hippy, bush bashing propoganda. Basically saying there will be a draft is a way of brainwashing the nation into thinking we had better get the **** out of this war .
There are several reasons why it will not get voted in.
1. They would respectibley repell the voters away from the party voted for the draft the democratic and republican party would not be that stupid.
2. Its not neccesary, the recruitment system we have now is just promise collage funds and you will get poorer famllies or families that can pay for it but it would throw them into debt.
3. The constituationality and if it is just of it would be brought into question. one would argue then that they are essentilay preventing them from getting better paying jobs, putting their lifes at risk to them completly unwillingly.
4. Lets face it a good ammount of people in poltics are going for a good cause but end up becoming a zealot. Basically the anti war movement is rather blind in the detirmaitnion against war. They are against premptive wars like Iraqi. Iraq was a premptive war. I believe Iraq was neccessary. I mean Sadaam was the reincarnate of Hitler. He used chemical and biological weapons not just against Iran but against his own people! That kind of behavior was used by Hitler. Sadamm also had quite a mass graves in his country. The US ended up searching for WMs and finding mass graves. We may have prevented even more world wide deaths from a WWIII!

Heh just can't resist a political debate.

Re: Draft thing is never going to be voted.
 

I invoke Godwin's law.

The thread is over.