Had to look it up since I wasn't really sure exactly what a "fork" was. And I guess for me to fully understand what this means, I had to look up the true meaning to what the word "impass" means (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impasse); in short, it's like a stalemate in a chess game, for whatever reason - in our case, we are at an "impass", due to simple lack of comunication.
I guess already there has been a "fork", when the original dev(s) were booted out, for whatever reasons. If the original Devs decide to continue their direction, then they will rightfully hold the original source, and what we have now is a fork? How about the databases: should they be considered as part of the "source" , and if so, where is the original database that should have been what we all worked on?

Angelox,

Thanks for posting that info, even gave me a better understanding too (which is never a bad thing).

I don’t think forking the project is worth it at this stage to be honest.

Lets reconcile and get communication flowing again, that should the main priority in my opinion.

As for the database... hmm, that’s a bit more of a complex issue, due to the database... Well databases... The 2 main versions, which gets preference / priority over the other? Should a 3rd be created, which houses both of them, etc?

- froglok

I always felt there were room for 2 and maybe more databases. That's why I released mine after hording it for a few months. I wasn't trying to compete with FNW's PEQ, but rather I wanted to offer people a choice. I have to say, if it wasn't for Angelox's database I might not have accepted FNW's offer to take over PEQ because then we'd be back to one db and no choice for the players.

Angelox once compared database design with art and he was right on the money with that analogy. That being said, there should be no official database project. Players have the right to choose which they like to use based on personal preference whether it be technical or political. Hell, people still ask me for my old database. Much of it has been merged into PEQ, but people often don't want to deal with the evil empire that is PEQ. I can understand it, normally, I support the small guy too.

Do this plz....

Ok, I think that we're all agreeing on the what(s), now we're just haggling on the how(s).

we can sit here and negotiate this all day (for weeks), but someone needs to grab the reigns and run with it.

Suggested Execution:
Collaboration Space:
Matt, would it be possible for you to split the dev section to add a "Community" dev section?

Since I don't think we want to do a full project fork, but the devs don't want to take the time to test / add the community code, I suggest that we take their code changes and test / add them to our code, as if it was submitted by the community. At that point, we would be able to keep a comprehensive source version, rather than a rogue code source.

Over time, I feel that this approach would make the community code, the official source for the project.

Code Repository
We will need someone (please step up and volunteer) to set up a repository for code builds. I guess this would be done through source forge. Whoever sets this up, should delegate to a few trusted people to keep this clean.

We should have all the official working database tools up there as well, along with a comprehensive guide on building the source. There are 45 different guides on the forums and wiki, and none of them work 100%, they all expect that you've used Visual Studio or whatever tool before. We need to make this project accessible to the masses. If anyone is willing to come in and join this team, they should be welcomed and treated with respect. We gain NOTHING from flaming new people. Let me repeat that:

We gain NOTHING from flaming new people.


Let's get this thing started. What other items need to be handled?

Dax

Can't quote froglok here but 2005 did depreciate sprintf, but I believe snprintf should still work and it allows you to specify the max size of the buffer.

Id rather take a little time and plan this before we just go about on our way and end up in extactly the same spot.

Suggested Execution:
Collaboration Space:

WEe do alrady have this, but its so under used :(

This is so not what we want in my opinion, we dont want to have 2 seperate versions, a offical and community version. we want an offical version which the community contributes to.

See above, I belive we shoudl only have 1 source tree

Unfortantly, I dont think we have any offical 3rd party tools. Maybe this is somethign we realyl need to consider and extend for EQEmu.

1000% agree here, but we want to putit on the right path now and as such, I think creatuing another source tree/fork is so not the way to go. I belvie we shoudl get the current devs back into the community and go from there

Once again, jus tmy opinion

-froglok

Sorry if my previous post sounds harsh, but spliting it to a offical and community version is somehting i feel very strongly that we shoudl avoid.

1 release is the way to go and then patches for custom code.

In order to ensure community code gets put into the offical project, we woudl need a process for code submissions, reviews, quality assurance and then finally merge it into the sourcer tree.

- froglok

The issue which would have to be addressed would be quality of the source code. As a software dev over nearly 15 years, we only want quality source code in the project to ensure security, stability and flexibility and sorry to say, but not all code provides this when submitted. This isn’t a bad thing, it’s just not everyone is up to the task of writing high grade code. This is where the dev team needs to check the code submitted and rewrite it if need to ensure its quality.

If we just allow anyone to add code, we are going to open sooooo many problems. I.e. even more security exploits, laggy or buggy code.
This is so not what we want in my opinion, we don’t want to have 2 separate versions, an official and community version. We want an official version which the community contributes to.
First things first tho, we need to get input from the dev team before we all run off and do our own this. Let’s make EQEmu united again, not fractured more.
Any who, its Fathers day here (my 2nd one) and im off to a bbq, so tonight ill have more input and start typing up some policy and process which the community can review and have input on :)

- froglok

I really think this thread is going somewhere :)

Personally, I'd like to see a merge of the major databases. To me, it's silly watching them all get developed independently when all have pretty much the same goal. Seems like a lot of duplicated effort and wasted calories.

I am not saying that there should only be one database though. I do think that at least the efforts to duplicate EQ Live should be merged and shared into one major database. Then people can fork that off, add their own ideas, and release their superset versions.

gernblan,

Do you mean a database, which would be the "offical" database and then the fortks woudl be PEQ/AX?

Personally, i think thats how it shoudl be also, but I think both are 2 far ahead of this, unless both teams communicate. Then comes the support roles, whos going to look after it, etc

1 Suggestion for this (may or may not be practical), would be both teams combining... however this would then limit peoples options, which people tend to avoid for obvious reasons.

Im for and against this personally lol (to quote ralph, im HAPPY and ANGRY).

Is this something, which can be flushged out more in a new thread under world / database building maybe?

- froglok

:D I do believe also, however we need more input from the admins / staff / devs *poke poke*

The more input we get, the more momentum we will get, which will in result start a massive movement! Let’s get the communication lines open!

- froglok

I was hoping someone else would say this, as it too is usually taken in a wrong way (specially when it comes from me).
I always thought this to be a good idea.
http://eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22209
At one time, Sesmar had started somthing like this, there was a database for us to build on, then there was the test server database where it eventually went to.
I was thinking, it would have to be a thing where, a person would get appointed a zone to work on (to avoid stepping on each others toes). For example, I want to do some work on gfay: somewhere it's posted angelox is working gfay for the next x-amount of days. If there was a general update to a group of zones this would have to be considered.
I wouldn't expect many people to be doing database work, so something like this would probably work.
Also, aside from the PEQ Editor, we would just have to be trusted, and granted shell access. some kind of port access for tools like the MySql ones. I found it very hard and frustrating, having to create sqls for someone else to run (I've had to do this with many servers).
In my case, I have a database, and will be mostly "porting" at first. < i think we would have to start with one of the database, rename it and port the rest. I'm not sure if all can be merged without problems.
With a good log system, we can prune out anyone who doesn't follow protocol, and with a good back up system we wouldn't loose much if someone screwed up.

This could be done with #DEFINE EQEMUDBEDITOMODE with the source, to allow full loggin for database editors and such.

Very much doable indeed!

- froglok

Meh, I am a firm believer in at least 1 standard, core database - and for me, that has always been PEQ. I believe their efforts to make a most-live-like database has worked perfectly, even if they do not release updates in a nice, clean packaged manner every 2 hours. :/ We had 2 or more "main" databases before, and while they both offered great content, it was often very confusing to try and "merge" them together. PEQ => Cavedude's. Then, Angelox made a database which became the next major step in a complete, live-like database. Cavedudes was merged into PEQ more or less, and is no longer required as a separate source of info.

To a newcomer, having all these different databases can be overwhelming. Whatever the end result, having ONE STABLE CORE database really needs to be our goal. No matter how "controls" it, no matter who "developed" it. You start splintering things here, we are no better than the WoWSpasm project, where every one is a dev, everyone is a db engineer, and every server is teh ubar shiznit best server/db on the planez.

I like CORE. Custom is that; custom. But 9 times out of 10, admins do not release their custom db's because it's theirs. I'd hate to end up seeing 20 custom EQEmu databases because everyone learned the term "fork" (which I think you actually mean branch, but ok :)).

z0mg gw db pwns all beyoches!

side note, i think the lack of response from doodman, fnw tells volumes. Back when the REAL dev team was together we came to the forums alot and i mean ALOT, Hogie at the time had the highest post count. As soon as the devlopers closed off themselves, closed up accepting new code (sept a few bits here and there) everything went down hill.

Developers releasing builds with the following comments "Tested on XXX platform but not XXX" is not acceptable either, "back in the day" that would never have happened. "oh it compiles ship it!

Boon, flawfinder, rats and other C source scanners might be a good start for finding this exploit.

Btw: I would sugest to see that the Moderators start doing some moderating and bring the hammer down on (the few) people who do not contribute and keep derailing threads for the sake of their ego.

Believe me, oldlurker... if I had the power, some accounts would be banned just because I don't like their pot-stirring antics. Unfortunately, all I can do is lock or delete threads - the latter I usually do not do because I rather enjoy the more intelligent community members seeing the true mental capacity of 'the tools'.

I have to agree :( We need to get input from them and we need to to move the project forward, with each day that passes by without them posting the information we need, makes it that much harder to continue without appointing a new dev team :(

Sorry guys, but we need active develoeprs who, not only code, but be an active member of the community.

- froglok

Frog, I don't want to get into a piss fight with you, as I think that we are in agreement about 99% of our points.

In fact, I think the only difference I see between us right now is that I've given up on the idea of feedback from the devs (after about the 5th day of this thread, with no input from FNW and Doodman). My post was not to be taken as "Hey guys, I've got a great idea", but rather "They are not going to acknowledge this, then we need to move on it without them."

Granted, as they say: “There's no reason to replace one tyrant three thousand miles away with three thousand tyrants one mile away”, and I don't think we should be rash and shoot ourselves in the foot; however, I think we need to start planning and move on this with the concept that the devs are NOT going to all come out and say "omg, afk, sorry". They clearly don't care about this, and aren't going to acknowledge it.

I don't think we need two versions of the source, but the community is the project, not man behind the curtain. At this point, saying "Let's wait for the devs" is like saying "don't worry, God will sort it out for us." Sorry guys, but if I thought the power of prayer was going to set this project free, I wouldn't be posting to these forums.

With that said, I don't see any need in hijacking the code, and claiming the SourceForge in the name of France or anything like that. In fact, there's really no reason to involve the current dev team if they don't choose to be included. Instead, as I said before, let's just set up shop next door, elect a new dev team and move on. If for some reason the devs decide that they'd like to be involved with what we're doing, then dandy! If they choose to stay silent, then whatever. I just don't think getting this far then saying "wait, you didn't say we were going to actually do anything" shows a lot of commitment. If we're going to go, let's go. If we're just going to sit on our thumbs and wait for the devs to say something, then I'll go find something else productive to do (like gnaw through an artery).

If all the devs decided that they never wanted anything to do with this project again, what would our course of action be? That's where I think we are. When the devs don't give us input, even when we are questioning their existence, I say they're done with us. Since we are the project, I say they're done with the project.

By all means, if I'm wrong, then let the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, The Toothfairy, or the Devs come in and explain why I'm wrong.

If we don't move on this, then this thread is just going to reach 15 pages, and we'll still be saying "Hellooooo, can one of the devs hear us?” At that point, we've only validated the opinion that the community is incapable of running itself, and that this project and all decisions to be made come exclusively from an iron curtained totalitarian oligarchy. If we mobilize, and say, "Fine, if you don't want to be involved in the decisions, then that doesn't prevent the decisions from being made", then they'll either choose to start communicating or drop out.

We have enthusiasm and excitement right now, if we drag this on without acting on it, that enthusiasm will die out and people will be cynical to the concept of anything changing, if this comes up again.

Like I said before:

Dax

Ponint taken, good points made actually.

I was giving them a change to repsond to this thread, but as you have said, it has been 5 days.

I propose this. Lets move forward without them and get things rolling. They have had no input, feedback, comments, abusive posts, or suggestions on any of these issues which need adreessing.

I also propose that we need to take control of the site and get the passwords handed over. If not, its time for a new domain or something. We need people with access on baord to move the project forward :)

My comments were never ment to offend or piss on anyway, just differnt avenues :) but as you said, i also thinkg 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of our points are the same, id be worried if they where extactly 100% the same!

Opinions and suggestions are good things people!

-froglok

Who are you to "propose" anything?

Exactly right, I’m someone who wants to help get this project moving again and full pace, As are the other members who are proposing positive ideas, suggestions and feedback

- froglok

If you guys decide to fork the project I wish you luck. Not very many people know how much work is involved in running a project and keeping it moving forward. I just dont know if you will find enough development support for such a goal. In theory it sounds good, but in practice a fork usually hurts both the new and old project if the teams arent strong and cohesive.

Yeah. I have to agree with LE. If it gets axed now, I would bet money on EQemu falling apart.

Agreed, I dont think forking is the way to go,But what are other peoples suggestions? Im sure we can come up with something.

As dax said tho, In order to move forward wehave to seize control... get the catapults and knights ready! lol jk

But seriourly though, We will need to apoint new dev's... so who is up for it.. becomming a EQEmu Dev? :D

- froglok

Don't you think that FNW and Doodman might have their reasons for being absent? Granted, their lack of communication might just be general burnout with the whole project but remember who did hold this project together in the last few years? Yes, their lack of communication is unsettling. But magine you where in their shoes, come back from a much needed vacation and see the boards in full uproar?
I was very exited to see work done for supporting the Anniversary Edition. It was my hope that FNW would update the tools so that we once again could collect data from the life servers.

Why not demand them to hand over the whole server but keep paying the bills!? I think you are kidding!

Bottom line is that without an Login Server you can't make this happen. And we all know that we cant get the existing one.

Btw: Who would be 'we' in 'we need control'? There is an abundance of people with more or less ambitious ideas coming here but very few of them have the staying power to see it happen.

I would think that we would be a large group of community members, which would actually be made up of the existing ones also.
Obtaining the above stated information to new people who join their ranks would allow better communication and increased development.

I’m not saying cut them off or anything of the sort. Let’s just expand people who can have access to such systems (i.e. the source tree but NOT the login server source).

What do you then suggest oldlurker, I’m all ears. You’re a member of this community just as everyone else, your input is valued.

Once again, my statement was meant to convey that the people in the teams (or the team size themselves) who have access to such things as the site, and source code tree be increased.

- froglok

My ideas and suggestions may or may nto be the right line of thinking, but lets get thinking instead of picking holes in everythign suggested. If there is a reason why an idea is flawed, point it out and ifyou can, suggest another course we can take, instead of just slammign the door shut.

- froglok

Hmm, lots going on here. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut, maybe I shouldnt, but hey, lets see where this goes.

First off, spliting the project is a idea, but let someone come in with some hard data say who will be on the dev team of the new project. All those in favor of a split can say "I" all they want to, but little code changes here and there just dont amount to anything when your just going to be siphioning the code that the original dev team is putting out.

I propose that the forums Admins spark of a fork in the development thread for 3rd party development. Anyone with some code changes that just cant simply make it to the table of the emu's source can put thier changes here. Then, anyone want to add their own 3rd party patches can swing by, grab that code and put it into thier own servers. This will add varitey and advantage to the server population out there. Server X runs on standard source while Server A runs on modified patched source. If there is someway to make people aware of what changes you have in place readily, people can see and say "Hey, this one does so much more than X, im going there to enjoy my emulating expierences"

The principle idea is already in effect, it just applies to custom content other than a "Live Like" expiernce. Non-Legit, Semi-Legit, Legit-Classic ect...

This could be way better than forking something thats is at this age, with no hardcore solid dev team to back up the new fork.

A way to possibly keep the masses happy, keep things confined to this community, and to keep people informed is to take things that are out of your control and work around them. You cant have the LS code, no matter how bad you want it. Forking on the ML would look like a hooker in her Sunday's Finest, it just would look silly. Why not take the crew that does see a issue, that does have some power and work around it. Matt, Angelox, you guys have the power to make new boards right, if not, you have the power to sticky stuff where it can be seen by most people coming in. If so, sticky a topic for a 3rd Party development forum that is off site. That forum could server as a way for people to get thier code fixes and patches. These servers are 3rd Party, and in no way endorsed or supported here. If your on a modded server, and you have problems, dont come back to us, as the people that made the mods you used.

I feel like I am repeating myself here, but you guys get the point. Fork Bad, New Options other than Fork Good.

Hell, for those that are truly hardcore, passionate EQEmu lovers, why not spoon the project. That sure bound to make people happier.

Thanks techguy84 for your thought-out input :)

- froglok

Real nice. 5 days in week leading into a major (U.S.) holiday weekend just before school starts. I think you guys need to calm down a bit. You need to ask yourselves:

Are you *really* prepared to "take over" AND pick up the tab on hosting fees, etc, out of your own pockets if necessary? Are you *really* prepared and willing to do whatever else is necessary to pull it off, possibly at the expense of spouse and family, no matter how much time, effort and money it takes? Are you prepared to do the equivalent of taking over a business that has no income?

It's not like putting in some overtime at work. There's not one iota of profit here to justify a possible major timesink. People start their own servers here time and again, only to find out that they really DON'T have all the time in the world to put into it and the server goes away. What you're proposing will take much more commitment than starting and maintaining a server.

Hmm, I was going to post a lengthy reply to your reply, but thought it best not to.

Let’s keep it on track and discuss ideas on how to get the project moving forward again and not criticising every suggestion made.

If you want, maybe even suggest something positive yourself?

- froglok

The amount of negativity here is truly just astonishing!

- froglok

I'm not a negative person at all. I've just been around the block enough times that what I've been observing here is a lot of energy and talk (which is good, and I do respect people's thoughts and opinions) without seeing a lot of practicality/reality, so I finally decided to post. I would hate to see you guys go off half-cocked, unprepared for the cold, hard reality of it. :) Nothing was meant to derail, just to get you all to make sure you're thinking things through, thoroughly. When you make a business plan, make sure it's complete or the bank will turn you down every time. ;)

Hi Boogerific (lol)

Cool Coo, Sorry if I jumped the gun also. But yes, a lot of talk does not always mean a lot of effect.

TBH, I have NO IDEA what’s going on in the US as I’m half a world away: P

I’d love to get some input from you also; your head seems screwed on.

I wish to say again, I do not wish to cause any hard or ill feelings towards the current administration of staff, my intention is to get communication flowing again between the various teams / section.

Any comments, suggestions, (insert other words here), anything which can be a positive input (yes, even criticism constructed right, can be positive).

On that note, I am also willing to donate a fully hosted server towards EQEmu development, current it’s running windows as the host OS, but its powerful enough to run 4 or 5 VM's of any OS on it (with the exception of MacOS.. NFI about MacOS lol).

The most community feedback and input we get the better paths we can follow.

WE = the community (I should really state that more), INCLUDING the current staff / devs / admins of the project.

Another option is also, driving interest with EQ2Emu and EQEmu, I’m sure something can be worked out here to increase the dev team size and valid input from the community here: P

Thoughts / ideas always welcome :) (Be constructive and not destructive please). If you have a valid concern, please raise it.

Yes I’ve been very active with this thread, why? Well EQEmu means a lot to a lot of people, so let’s continue it as a strong and healthy project together!

- froglok

Unfortunately I'm a player, not a programmer or coder. I just have a lot of experience in business management and telecom from days gone by. I really don't have any experience in software-type projects or teams. :)

So I am negative ... well, I think I can live with that. The gist of my posting was not to throw the baby out with the bathwater right now but wait till FNW and Doodman have a chance to answer.

How about stop derailing this thread and instead start doing some measurable work toward identifying and fixing this exploit?

Personally, I am in full agreement with getting the train back on it's tracks - fixing the existing problem, not scrapping it and starting all over. I feel the incredible amount of disrespect being shown the existing devs is what is astonishing. No, they do not sit at their terminals 12 hours a day pumping out code for EQEmulator. They are also not a team of 20 devs, but a fairly small handful of people who do this when "life" allows them time to do it.

This is not a professional dev team. The root problem here is not "where is FNW, Doodman, Rogean", etc. It's "Why is there no interest in other c++ savvy developers jumping on the bandwagon to help EQEmu?"

That answer is simple. There is no interest (by comparison to other EMUs) in EQ anymore. It is just too old, and anyone who ever played this game originally has to at least be in their early 20's now with no time to devote to this project, jobs + family + life = no gaming. Interest in EQEmu for most it seems is like wanting to go back to Sea World again to try and recapture some feelings of wonder and amazement when they were a kid.

Froggy, I am not trying to be negative, but realistic. But I cannot see how threatening to splinter the project, take over, push the old dudes out, and somehow expect there to be a platoon of fresh new devs to carry on their work is going to help. I see very few new dev types stepping up to simply start adding to the current functionality - only crying that the devs don't communicate.

Let me ask you this; If all you ever saw when you came to the community forum is "arrogant devs" "devs don't care" "devs don't talk" "replace them they suck" and an assortment of other insanely disrespectful outbursts from people who generally don't do shit but run their mouths, why would you want to communicate or help any longer?

If our mission here is to make this community more dev-friendly, meaning show some f__cking gratitude for the efforts made thus far, and try and help the existing team get back on track, I am all for it. But any movement towards splintering, branching, "forking", and I (as a community member) will be done here entirely.