Some thoughts on XP, Drops, etc.
 

Some of the things that make Everquest or any game of this type are; fighting NPCs and getting experience, looking for drops (better gear, plat, etc), Seems like most of the game revolves off these two things.
When you start offering free items to summon and increased experience rates, all you do, is greatly shorten the game for yourself and everyone else. Just like when you offer a command to zone anywhere,, or use portals, then the Norrath that was once a vast land-mass, becomes tiny.
Since most servers have the same content, it only takes one server to offer all these "free-bees", and ruin it for all the others. "Why should I go to Joes legit server, when I can go to Speedy's server and have the game-ending in a day?" "Once I finish up the game, why would I go to Joes legit server at all?"
At the end, all the servers who do have players, have mostly a bunch of of "Level 65-in-a-day" players, which really haven't much to do, void raiding and farming.
Reality is, we have no game. It's not because we need a Classic, Live-Like, or Custom server, but because we have taken out key elements that make this game of Everquest. I know many do not want to hear this, but it's the truth, and you all really need to do something about it.
All this work being done by the Devs on the source and work adding content to the database is really just a waste of time, if we can't somehow put a curve on a few things.

If this really bothered people, there would already be a classic server setup with no items, exp, etc given. There is a classic server in the works and there has been previous classic servers that have failed (to my knowledge), so I guess it has bothered some.

Agreed - but many people come to alternatives seeking freedom from what makes EverQuest, EverQuest.

Agreed with the zone anywhere part, portals i've always been fond of, but only when you limit it to a certain point (IE: You can zone here, and here, but you must walk from here to here.)

Agreed. The problem is we've simplified things so much, that Speedy's server can be done. Even so, Speedy's server will continue to exist in the community , as Bob or Steve can do what they do.

So far up to here good.

Hmm...

Correct. There's a few options here, PEQ goes closed source (not gonna happen), People stop using legit, off the bat servers (also not going to happen, build it and people will {might?} come.)

I disagree here; the dev's work is NOT a waste of time. Give a man a shovel and he'll make a sandcastle in a sandbox, but only if that sandcastle is quality will it be appriciated.

The problem is that we're not capturing the livelike feel, that's right. The problem is live is bland; we've been through it all.

If not live, what else will the project be while keeping within the EQ engine?

Custom is that idea. Custom servers that keep the feel of live alive, while not giving everyone things on a silver platter.

However...

When making one of these, you need to not make it TOO hard, or else people will get discouraged and quit. Such is the case with casual gamers with WoW/EQ2. Look how successful they have been.

The way to do it is simple; build something in live's engine, not livelike, completely custom and people will come.

That's just my two cents, though.

As long as this is all beta, which it is from one build to the next it has people will not really want to "grind" from one level to the next, give me a build that works flawlessly and I will be happy to grind those levels out.....

I have to respectfully disagree on most points. Now, I am using Grand Creation as a example. We have decent numbers, the average on at a time is around 60. To be truthful, for any emulated server (save Mangos or Antrix) those are pretty good numbers. We offer no free items or spells, no zone commands, etc. About the only thing we do offer are your bot vendors on PoK. Since that does cost the player currency, and it gets around the lack of player buffers I don't consider that a real freebie.

The main player type I find on PEQ are the hardcore players. They know the game well, and they enjoy playing it, even if they've done the same thing over and over again. To them, there is still fun and adventure. EQEmu is no longer the static mess it used to be. There are variables and surprises that keep players on their toes, and force them to use proper strategy. The great thing about this from a development standpoint is these players like things exactly the way they were on Live, and they have no problem offering suggestions or reporting bugs to allow us to make that so. I don't think the EQEmu community as a whole realizes how much work we put into making event scripts or raid events as live like as possible. We don't just recreate the mobs and loot. We attempt to recreate the strategy, the whole experience. Perhaps we bump the XP and loot a bit, but that in no way makes the game easy. I'm constantly nerfing things I feel are too easy, I know players that have been trying to get their hands on the same spell for weeks, even months at a time, PEQ currently has 400 player corpses in the world. The player base I mainly deal with loves that stuff!

I don't feel any work done on the source or in the db is a waste of time at all. There is still a long long list of bugs, missing features, balance issues, etc that need to be ironed out. If anything, we can call it for prosperity sake. The main point of the project is to create EverQuest so we will be able to play it forever, long after Sony has pulled the plug. That's also why I am a huge fan of creating a pure classic server. Hell, I'd love to create a server package for each expansion, using the proper client at the time for no other reason but simply to have it. The other reasons I put so much work into PEQ is for personal gain. Some people collect coins, I build Norrath. Lastly, and most importantly for me, I enjoy building the database for the players I mentioned above, those who enjoy playing EverQuest and appreciate the work all the devels put into it.

Interesting debate
 

I have created a few servers for a local group of friends and such. A couple in particular come to mind that want to have the best gear, level 60 and be able to run around and kill all the bosses.
Then what!!!

Everquest is a great game. It beats being led by the nose in games like wow and LoTR. Yes their graphics are better, and have some nice features, but EQ gives you that anticipation of what will the next guy drop or man my gear sucks and am I big enough to handle OOT yet.

Ya have to have the feeling of "working" for it, and when you get it, sit back in your computer easy chair and smile.

My two cents worth.

Yes!

Classic is awesome! I feel the main trunk of any emulator though is to get as many of the features hooked up as possible. Then people can use that a base to come up with any flavor they want, fun-server, classic, FFA PvP or whatever. So many people had played this game for so many reasons it's far better to get the as much of the game content working and let people tailor it their own way from there. Even better if the features could be turned on/off in the settings table too. Even Mangos servers are set up with this variety as well.

I love tradeskilling, hunting for those elusive mats and sharing what I make with other players. Don't forget all the neat quests too. :) I also like having fun with the other things they have in the game and look forward to one day messing around with LDoNs, monster shrouds and missions, earning leadership AAs, the quest tasks and all the other stuff I wanted to try on live but was left behind in the next x-pac release. EQ is a lot like a melting pot of playstyles and a *huge* toybox, but I feel the whole she'bang should be inclusive as a base.

Some hot blooded people love action oriented Zek-PvP, some rugged types like to play classic survival mode, some players are looking for their own 'gated community' to play a live-like game without all the smacktards, ubers and farmers you get on live, some want to create whole new experiences using the game as an artists pallet, and some like to kick back and explore places you could never visit without 36-72 peons along.

((I know, in my many, many years of being a part of this project I have done all that.))

This is my Mitt Romney response, but I feel more people are attracted to a project the more inclusive the setup is. So yes, I feel a main trunk live-like database should be maintained along with a classic one as well (Angel's DB does this very well. BTW :), but I try to maintain both). As for the drops, XPs, and 'game settings' stuff, I think they are a more personal preference.

I also disagree.

MMOs are all about accomplishment. If a server lets players summon items and #level, then in reality there is no difference between an uber geared lvl 65 and a lvl 1 with cloth armor on that server. It's when it takes some time to get there, like on PEQ, that it becomes meaningful.

Yes players might log on to Joe's semi-legit server, but once they realize that from the start there is absolutely nothing they can do on there to advance their characters from the others, they'll leave. Hopefully instead of just outright quitting Eqemu they'll find their way to a legit server.

I am so sick of hearing the tag "Classic" I am about to puke on my shirt. Seriously. This is getting really, really tiresome to read in every f'n post, guys. This emulator is written in such a way that you, the admin, can do any stinking thing you want with it -- including create your own worlds/zones from the ground up!! Who else offers that? Talk to me about unique experiences? How "EQ" is it to log into a new server who's admin just spent 6+ mos in OpenZone creating an entirely new experience? Most of the stodgy old farts around here turn their nose up at anything that isn't exactly like it was on Day 1. Screw that. I'm just so tired of hearing about "classic". It's dead. Move on.

Admins -- make your servers soloable. Make your servers single-group raid content. Move things around in a zone. Change the quests. Add custom items. Create an entirely new zone and surprise your population with something other than East Commons (c) SOE 1999-2007 when they zone in.

FFS people. You will NOT play an EQ Classic game like it was when the game was first released. You will NOT run at 1.0 speed from Freeport to Qeynos and think it's awesome. You will NOT think CRs to South Karana are "the shit old sk00l roXxOrz" when you forget you are bound in GFay and no one is around to transport you there. I am truly aghast by the delusions here.

No offense to Angelox, because I do understand fully where his heart is for EQ. But these are the days of the Buried Sea, not Kunark. Get the emulator to Emulate something in the last 5 years of expansions, then worry about whether someone can #summon an item or not and ruin the mystique.

Errrr.......Umm........thats exactly how I play my OWN toons on my OWN server and it does roXx0rz for me :)

I was speaking to the huddles masses, not the occasional sociopath. ;)

~runs~

Whoa there, whoa there.

To each his own. If a classic server is not for you, don't play on one. By classic, I mean classic. The game as it was. The game at its beginning was about so much more including strategy. Not only strategy by yourself, but strategy with others. Hrm...my party got killed in the middle of an orc camp by orcs 10 levels higher than us. How will we pull this off? Why don't we have the naked halfling kite them around while we loot our corpses and then help kill them. THAT WAS FUN. In today's game, nevermind that. Simply go into the guild hall and pay money to have your body dragged back. Simply click on a book to be moved across the world. Sorry, but not even World of Warcraft players are that lazy. I respect your views but there are many people who want to want to play the game for what the game was, not for what it is today. And by the way, I NEVER forget where I am bound. :rolleyes:

-Wizzel

Amen. Not being a fanboy, nor a hater, but I agree.

I haven't read everything on this thread but it's making me concerned about what will happen when people really start creating all new stuff for use with SimpleCilent. People should correct me if I'm mistaken, but IMHO the point there really will be mystique first and foremost. Is this something that needs to be thought through before we go diving into server creation?

Windcatcher, I have respected you as a developer since forever and you have created such awesome tools and programs that enhance every aspect of this project and others. But I fail to realize the need for a custom client. People are in love with this game for what it is. Ak'Anon, Grobb, Halas, Freeport....the list goes on. People are in love with the models of the orc, skeleton, rat, dragons and everything else. I think a hybrid consisting of original content and custom content keeps a game fresh but why redesign the game from the ground up? This is an honest question and I am just curious as to what you feel will be accomplished with your client.

-Wizzel

My rationale behind SimpleClient:

http://www.eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22439

the concept is simple.

wind and buddies are not looking to "replace" the soe client. they're looking to open up the architecture so that people who want to craft their own worlds are not hemmed in by the various "hard coded" aspects of the client. you cant easily alter the spells/effects, add/remove classes/races, etc. unless we embrace a new "open" client. (open is in quotes because of the fact that parts of the client must remain closed for security purposes, like authentication, etc.)

you dont HAVE to use the new client. but it is a viable option for those who want to go beyond what soe has provided as content.

make sense?

== sfisque

Sounds awesome bud. Thanks for explaining it guys.

/cheer! Naked halflings are always fun. :D

I'd like to think you understand where I am really coming from, but I don't think you do. You are lumping me into a "it's not modern and easy so I hate it" category. While the newer games are pretty, they are not nearly as "fun" as original EQ. Why do you think you and I differ so much on this opinion? I am an old school stratigist, too. I am sad that the days of actually working for your glory are gone. All along, this is what I have been saying - including agreeing with your concepts and philosophies.

Where we differ in opinion (only) is that it requires some special server or client to do it. It is my opinion that the current emulator, with the appropriate amount of effort, can do exactly what everyone wants it to do. All it takes is database work, removing some of the clicky transport doors from the world and voila - Old EQ.

Yes, the Titanium client has new windows that do stuff, such as Maps. But you cannot tell me anyone who's played this game for 8 years needs a map to Antonica. ;)

Anyway, you said you were done arguing with me. So, I am beating a dead horse trying to convince you I am not against you, Wizzel. Totally for your ideas, I just think the effort you are going to put into this will not change the status of the emulator - no matter how many fanbois /cheer that they want it. If they did, they'd play the existing servers from level 1 and enjoy themselves. Maybe it's all about the data, not the client.

I beg to differ. There where huge changes in gameplay over the years. The most prominent would be the melee revamp(imho a much needed upgrade for 2h weapons)around SoL launch. Most of this has to be changed/implemented in the server code.
So what is truly classic? If you "only" look at the changes(mostly nerfs) that went in from the day EQ launched to the day Kunark hit the shelves you will be quite overwhelmed.
But it is my option too that is a waste of time and effort to try to get an really old client to work with eqemulator. Not to mention the legal problems, not everyone still has his EQ, Kunark or Velious game CDs.

I respect all of your opinions and I realize that it can basically be the same game as the original game and I realize both of you believe that the work myself and another are doing are a waste of time. All I ask is that you hold your judgment and give it a try. This isn't trying to recreate the first memory and the original feeling, it is about trying to play a game I once loved to play. Why do I load up SimCity 2000 every once in a while. Why don't I play SimCity 4. Simply put, newer doesn't mean better. Why do we always play Halo 1 when friends get together. Simply put, Halo 2 is not as exciting. I feel that if you asked a lot of people if they would play Everquest as it was, 1-50, Antonica, Odus and Faydwer for free, most would say yes.

-Wizzel

Did someone say Everquest, 1-50, Antonica, Odus, AND Fayder, FREE?! Sign me up.

You definitely got that. I am very much looking forward to what you are doing. And the rest is moot until then. :)


You got me there... I tend to look superficially at the game from a content point of view, and the nerfs/changes to the engine did have a profound effect on the game itself. Damn you for putting a rumple in my rant! ;)

For what its worth as a EQEMU noob and a 5 year live player i do Agree if you get to much to soon then at high end of the game it gets to be pointless to play the game is all about getting there for me. but all do not see it my way but EQEMU has done us a favor a GIANT favor you dont need to have a paypal or CC to have fun and that is what brought most of us here so not all will be making a server of his/her own and having a choice of servers /game play for them is one way to keep the game fun.look at it this way if player x starts on toms legit server to the max lvl 65 and finds him self wanting something to do but not much going on he can always start a server that will let him skip some grind levels and do some custom quests you why would player x ever go back to his lvl 65 legit char on toms server ? well in 65 lvls i am sure he made some friends along the way and that is what keeps players coming back to any mmorpg /mmo's but this is just one noobs point of view PS Big CONGRATZ and Thanks to all who spend hours/days/weeks/months/and years in to the DEV of EQEMU and all the DB,Quest,Programs

My brain just imploded.

I agree with John here. I too am getting tired of hearing classic over and over. I think it is an exciting idea and will do well, but people will come to realize how it will eventually limit their play.

The point is, EQ is the type of game that requires continual evolution. The classic servers, when they do come out, will come out with a bang, but will eventually die out due to boredom of nothing else to do. If anything else is added, then it is not classic anymore, and if it is left alone, you have a dying game. Not the best options there.

I love custom content and the ability to solo/raid with only a group. It is more personal to me this way and gives more of a feel of the old MUDs I used to play instead of the huge massive raids.

I think most people who come to EQEMU are wanting something different, not the same thing. If we wanted the same thing we would continue to play on live.

I am here because I love the custom content I have found and the ability to DO something different with a game I love.

I personally feel that Jest3 has done just this and would encourage anyone to check it out. I think it is a perfect example of what people should look for when they come into the EQEMU world, which basically is, the feeling of being in EverQuest, but not having to put up with the annoyances experienced by it.