Classic or era-based server content
 

I made a server something like five years ago to see "how MMOs work" (not that EQemu is representative of MMO architecture these days). It was fun, frustrating without the guides that are around today. I've been thinking about trying again. Similar to P99, which I enjoy, but with some custom mechanics that will never exist on there. I'm sure I can get the server up and running, my question is about the content...

I found ProjectEQ, which seems great, but I would bet that P99 has diverged or done their own modifications and I'm guessing they haven't ported their findings back to ProjectEQ (I don't think ProjectEQ really has a way for them to do that from what I can tell). Does anyone know if this is correct?

Also, ProjectEQ seems to be progression based, meaning their previous era versions are not maintained, so e.g. their Velious-era database would have "fixes" in the Luclin version. If I wanted to create a Velious-era server, and used the latest version on ProjectEQ while disabling newer zones, I'm guessing that would include changes to the Velious-era content (e.g. nerfs) that were made post-Velious. Is that correct?

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to compete with P99 (or anyone else), I don't want that headache. The headache I want is to just make something different and/or see if my ideas are fun or (most likely) horrible, but within the era I enjoyed the most.

From reading patches, posts, etc. from P99 it seems like they "enable eras", which sounds interesting, as if there is a timeline of eras rolled up with patches that they move through...not just making things act as they were in an era, but working through the steps in time. That's pretty cool if that's how they work (meaning P99), but I digress.

Nilbog and Rogean do not share many, if any changes back to PEQ that I know. Yes, both parties could work together but that is not how it is currently working out. As far as using the standard default PEQ database, there will be months or even years of changes you will have to make if you want a truly Velious era database. I have been doing it for around 4 months now and still have a long way to go. Your items, start locations, spawns, spells, trivials on tradeskills, skill caps, zone lines will all have to be adjusted. That is not even touching quest changes like money and xp given.

It is a huge undertaking, devnoob and I personally have been reverting from a PEQ database because our original database was so old back from the early GuildWars days. We do this during/inbetween the servers we host (when people play on it) and this new rendition has been going on since about 2011. I am still fixing things to this day and some things can't be fixed sometimes without modifying the client.

A good example of 'client side' issues is the 'brown skeleton' model from classic -- you won't be able to get it working unless you do some impressive texture/model changes (or modify the client). Eg. http://i54.tinypic.com/k21ogk.jpg. Some things really come down to nitpicking of how classic it needs to be.

How much work do you want to put into it and how much time you want to learn how to do new things because if you take on a responsibility of the eqemu server by yourself you inherit the responsibilities of the code base, database and the client.

Long read...

I agree with image and provocating. It is a huge undertaking. I'm just one guy with limited knowledge and there is enough within the database to consume unknown hours/days/weeks to alter to a previous time.

There is a certain segment of folks here who wish to have classic/progression content and I believe this segment is large enough to warrant a bit of organization.

I recently had a conversation with someone about this. Below are the edited parts which may have relevance to this topic. Maybe something here will entice others in some way:
I am willing to share everything I have done. The original DB, the source and everything else has been shared with me. I won't claim what I have done is original, hasn't been done before or special in any way. I have spent a great deal of time on my project.

I can tell you now, with no doubt I have spent anywhere from 4~8 hours a day on just bug fixes, pathing issues, managing my server. With Legacy of FrostStone this has been the norm for the last 4 months. Sign up on my Mantis site and just looking at how many tickets I get a week, those are just the ones that people report, many issues are discussed in /ooc and I just remember it needs to be done.

I think I have been running servers for around 4 years now, it takes a lot of commitment and I think most have no idea what they are getting into. Sure you can ignore bug request from your players, but it is like the broken window philosophy.

So I am just agreeing with Image here, it is how much you want to put into it.

From a personal standpoint:

I'm not interested in running a public server. I know enough from being around here a while to understand it would take more than just me.

I'm focused on learning about all the processes involved. I believe I could contribute to a team in some way. Making a day-in, day-out commitment to one for an undefined period of time is something I cannot do. I would rather spend the time learning new things than doing the same thing over and over.

EDIT: To clarify, a team running a server and a commitment resembling a job

This does not mean I would not contribute to a goal which some could benefit from which includes doing the same thing over and over. There is a distinction.

I've also spent a lot of time modifying PEQ to be more classic (in my case aiming for being completely true to the last day of Velious) but I wonder the same thing - would people contribute to a project (call it OpenClassic) where everyone works together to create an accurate Classic server, with proper source code control so the project can roll out an accurate Classic Era server version and maintain that then a Kunark version, etc. so if someone wants to create a progression server they can simply download the code and data for that version, then increment through the patches on the correct timeline etc.

Nilbog and crew have done an awesome job but it would be really nice if the code/data was open source so we didn't have a ton of people reinventing the wheel...

Regards,
Mg

I post my collection of path files on www.eqpvp.com/paths -- probably be updating it again soon once I do some run testing around the new path files I have been working on this month.

My database/code is so off base from main eqemu. Highly modified since 2011 since I run custom servers (but on the classic setting). Just coming to mind I don't even have LUA scripting in there I am still using perl, plus the loot table design was rewritten recently. I can't suggest it as a base unfortunately because its been modified for my custom server (such as a Diablo item system that lets me create items on the fly during gameplay). Just a lot of things I don't think would fall in line with classic or would want to be part of that source.

They will never open source p1999, can you imagine 10 of those servers? It would kill their population.

Indeed, hence the need to crowdsource something thats implicitly open source from the outset -- Mg

I'm with ya.

I can't code yet but, as mentioned, I can work a database. I am not afraid of mapping data if it's considered largely accurate. Not saying I could map it all in all circumstances or that I am some master at it, silly...

The database is a huge undertaking IF it needs to be changed from scratch (peq). But, for many of us, it's not from scratch. We've all worked on it in one form or another.

I think the biggest hurdle is getting people to loosen their iron grip on their own data. The next hurdle would be agreeing on content. The real classic pros can do this for classic. Any who have played the game can contribute here with all expansions, beautiful! It's not as hard as it seems.

The current code has quite a bit of flexibility through the `rule_values` table. (thank you to all that put their hard work on it and foresight) <--- I cannot stress this one enough

There are a lot of things that could be considered "easy" as far as coding goes. I won't be the judge of that although I know it to be true.

A few things, at least from the get go, would probably need to be accepted by a person like myself with no coding background. Some things are done as good as they can be done for an emu. Unless I bump my head and miraculously become a prodigy coder, I will (have to) accept this. I'm talking about the mechanics, of course.

Everything is there. All the long hard years of DB building and coding is in place. It is this simple; naysayers... I don't have kind words for naysayers. This goes for devil's advocates although, there is sometimes merit in what they state. I'm a devil's advocate.

Last little rah rah thing I'll say on this.

If each of us spent a teeny, tiny fraction of the time on organizing this that we did on altering our own content, do you think it would happen?

I would contribute if anything became of it.

Awesome, those that have more experience than me (many/most/all?) can recommend the best route to organizing (git?) and I will do my best to set it up.

If I do this, my first commit will be everything I have. (I know, it must be a lot, you're thinking) All my data, which will surprise some of you. All my sql scripts concerning building expansions <this will surprise you as well ;)> and if more beginners need some query help, I can add some more basic searching scripts along with explanations.

Personally, I would love some critque on my scripts.

Only reason I say it may surprise you is because I'm the FNG asking all the questions.

EDIT: I didn't clarify - if those with more experience than me could suggest a good way to organize this, please, I would be grateful =)
I don't like guessing

I think this is a great idea! Accurate content that all could then build off of even if it's a custom server. That was originally the whole idea behind the emu in the beginning?

We could all just wait for EQClassic to finally release.

https://i.imgflip.com/rfi3h.jpg





(not srs, it'll never release)

That was good chrsschb, lol.

I'll just start something. If it needs to be changed, it can be changed.

I put some of my stuff here:

https://github.com/aduchaine/EQEmuCl...n/tree/AdrianD

There is likely a better place to put large tables and large amounts of data and I am open to advice.

I am new at the git stuff so please, suggest better methods.

Thanks

EDIT: I also don't care to have "ownership" of this stuff, and don't want it. If it can be set differently, please let me know.

I suspect we need to coordinate an approach - my thoughts are:

1. Start with the current rev of eqemu and keep any changes required to "classic-ify" the code parameter driven and checked into the main code base so we're not creating a fork that will never get merged back into the main project.

2. Start with a current rev of PEQ and just create SQL patches to apply that if run sequentially will result in a "classic-ify'd' database. So for example the first giant SQL file for my database removes NPCs, doors, objects, items, etc. that are not Trilogy. This means that each revision of PEQ the project needs to ensure that the changes are applied but reviewed in case the change breaks something in the classic database. Publish the sql along with the eqemu code so if someone wants to 'classic'ify' their server they just apply that SQL in sequence to the current PEQ file.

3. Quests - open question, probably need to fork these entirely since I doubt any fixes made to quests are intended to revert them to classic.

So what I see happening is a project to create a release of the server as of March 16 1999. Next, a release as of the first significant patch (1999-09-21?) and so on. Each release would be a snapshot in time of the server, allowing server operators to follow actual timelines for releases of functions etc. to create a truly classic experience.

Regards,
Mg

I am not source control expert but I do not think this is viable. My source has gotten further and further custom. You have to think the current EqEmu source has code for instancing, AA's (cannot completely remove), bots, mercs, etc. Do you really want to keep all of that in there if it is not needed? I started stripping all of that out my first month with Legacy of FrostStone. I would want more streamlined code. When you are debugging there are a hell of a lot less lines of code when you take out routines that are not needed. If something cool comes to EqEmu source and I think it is needed I have added it to mine.

That being said I do not think you can merge back in if the changes are that drastic, sounds like a nightmare.

Stripping code out by actually physically removing it is silly - better to have a compiler directive to just not compile that code in versus removing it. P99 have removed AA code - how can they do AAs now without laboriously reinserting the code? That being said I expect that the coders who are trying to get as close to Live as possible would be saying "No fucking way, keep that classic shit out of the code, it's complicated enough"

At the same time, if necessary I'd fork the code, keep applying updates and not change much so the code doesn't become so totally different than the main code base so as to preclude applying reasonable updates that would be useful in possible future expansions...

Regards,
Mg

Well we have two different directives. My code will never go past Velious.

Yes, yes.

I agree. What we do to customize our servers is our prerogative. My thought on this is to have a base for those interested in classic/progression.

I have done some of this as good as I can. I haven't gone as far as getting things proper on a patch to patch timeline.

Currently, with the sqls I have created, any quest npcs which are not part of a certain expansion will not be present in the table `npc_types`. Items which are not part of a certain expansion will not be present in the table `items`. This will effectively disable the quest in many circumstances.

Of course, there are npcs and items which are a part of the expansion and they are not accurate. Many other quests, when enabled, may not be accurate to the era. I have only edited a very small portion of quests to reflect the era they were introduced.

......................

I've devised a simple "nomenclature" in the expansion columns I've added to a few tables. Without a full explanation, I've given 50k+ npcs a non-default value and 60k+ items a non-default value. Lot's of work remains, though.

How classic or progression someone wants their server is again, their prerogative. I want to make it so the transition from what is now to something closer to an earlier era is simple. I've done this.

I always wanted to make it so this could be used for new community members. Therefore, I don't make many changes to the actual data. My peq DB is not very different from the guy who started up today.

Many first timers are not capable of making drastic code changes. This includes me. I'm not ready to go down a path where support will be hard to find by branching off from the main community. This is not a goal of mine.

I think it's great to discuss and even plan for the full-range of possibilities. This is why I asked the question.

I do not want to overcomplicate things and drive away support and assistance.

Thanks

This is getting bumped.

This deserves more attention.

Out of the woodwork!

Loosen the grip!

Lets get something done.

I agree whOle heartily!

If you are doing this by an Era by Era basis, like full progression then you are going to have to have a different quest pack for each era. After months of just reverting to Velious on my server I can tell you many quest are just flat out missing. Most are inaccurate with experience, mostly the newbie quest. We are still weeding out NPC's that out of era.

Drops rates are being changed on mob by mob basis, almost daily. Since it is unknown what they actually are. PEQ uses Magelo for drop rates but from my experience they are not accurate, even for the current era.

Perfection is impossible.

It's easy to drop any magelo generated loottable/lootdrop. There are quite a few of the above table entries that go unused which could be matched up with a bit of work.

It's also easy to drop all items outside of an expansion if those items are labelled with an expansion - like I have done for 60k+ items - so some of the magelo gen data dropping isn't necessary.

This is what I'm basically talking about. Getting the data proper in the database is huge as everyone has said. I've made some of it so simple a caveman can help!

I am pretty sure the Magelo issue has to lie with multiple items dropping off of creatures. Magelo drop rates do not show quantities so if a Crag Spider drops 8 silks, that would be a 800% drop rate on that one drop. I do not think Magelo's website ever shows above 100%

To add:

I don't feel like carrying on and on about what I have done because I'm not an self-centered egomaniac like some. But, I also feel that I am doing a disservice to the segment of the community that wants classic/progression by not harping about what I have done (started).

It's very important to get these things (lootdrops, items, npcs, other database stuff) correct. I've spent about as much time developing my system as I have changing data (maybe not, but I said this for effect).

P99 has done it with whoever they have.

I see no fucking reason a much larger community can't!

Get with it...

It seems that lootdrop.ids were added along with existing one when this was done. There are several columns in `loottable_entries` and `lootdrop_entries` which control this. <chance, multiplier, mindrop, probability> all of these combined create an environment that when you kill `a_large_rat` you get twelve items.

I do not think you understood what I was saying. Look at...

http://eq.magelo.com/npc/7155

See the spider shows it drops silk 85% of the time? What the emulator would translate that to is dropping 1 silk 85% of the time. I am not sure how the Magelo import routine works but I would think it could possibly get the percentages right on multiples. A Crag spider can possibly drop up to 8 silks. It may be 15% with an 8x multiplier, but it is possible.

I've never looked at magelo grabs so perhaps I misunderstood you.

I know what I see in the DB though. A multiplier value was assigned somehow.

As far as crag spiders specifically: they have dropped large numbers of silks since back in PoP days if not earlier, I'm unsure exactly how far back

If you have virgin ears, click out of this thread...

...................

A snippet from a convo I had recently regarding this general issue:

I seem to be met on many sides by people unwilling.

...................

Egos abound!

Most people who are already here likely have time invested in their existing projects and will continue to work those. No one is going to drop what they are doing just to start a new project unless they are truly motivated. These tasks are pretty thankless (building databases/handing them out publicly). Plus doing classic everyone wants it done 'RIGHT', what is 'right' you may ask? Hell if I know, but everyone seems to have their own interpretation of each mob, quest, etc and the slightest cosmetic can turn a player off to the server.

As provocating touched on part of the community will scorn you for the work, lack of perfection in every avenue, so unless you have everything done and sparkly for them its a spit in the face. Another group of individuals might just take what you did and start their own server with no credit and put you in the dust (Which I guess is the fear for some servers?).

Even P99 is a 'vague classic equivalent' and probably will be the only 'classical' server with the full extent of changes made. EQClassic went the route for trilogy, then yeahlight dropped the ball and its back to titanium client and they are pretty much reinventing the wheel again. With the Titanium classic it is impossible to have full on classic, features have been ripped out of the client (I miss those message boards) and boats are worked around using the 'beta' boat etc. Any true hope of a trilogy or older client is highly diminished especially with the compatibility issues of operating system/hardware. Simply put in lots of minds 'its more trouble than its worth'.

TLDR: If you want it, you have to do it yourself. Time is invested elsewhere, to pick this up and 'do it right' would take years, P99 isn't going to help you, don't count on anyone helping. What work you get done will be critiqued heavily and social aspect of the community can sometimes be detrimental in the classic area. At this point 'doing it right' is the only way it will probably get recognized and everyone has their own pipe dream of what that 'right' is.

I am "egobound" ? Not hardly.

You wanted to start this project, you started the thread, not me.

That entire PM, was sent you you in confidence. There again I do not send anything in a PM that I would be ashamed of. You are definitely not going about this endeavor of yours in a fashion that would encourage people to help you.

Several PM's you sent me were pretty narcissistic but I will not post these here in a public forum. Good luck on your project, I definitely will not be contributing to it. You are showing your true colors.

And yes you have to do it yourself. As I said before I have been faced with much negativity on my project but I stick to my guns on what I want. I put in countless hours of GM'ing, server maintenance, bug reports. I am not going to stop what I am doing to help you. No one stopped what they were doing to help me. As I said my server comes first above everything else except my day job.

Image: I read it.

I'm not concerned about credit. I'm not concerned about having a live server. Having players to play with on a somewhat regular basis would be nice.

I'm not talking about a commitment that isn't already being done or has been done. Backtrack, the only commitment I am talking about is to continue towards the overall goal which seems to be a similar thread.

For example: Participants put the data somewhere. People take and use the data, maybe refine it. Much like how this project works. It's really not complicated or a large commitment beyond what people are doing already.

It's sharing and improving, simple.

Provocating: I was not talking about you and I was not thinking of any single person, specifically. Until you said something, the average onlooker wouldn't know the difference. And what's the big deal on that? I don't give a shit what is posted here if I said it. I've been a silly happy camper here and you know what, I don't talk or act this way. I'm trying to be nice/disarming so the general public will be more willing to help. SMH

Well I am out of this conversation. These topics seem to heat up and I am not interested in drama.

I would rather have had you called me an a-hole in private. It would have made a public explanation unnecessary. You're ok in my book. :) Ahhh, internet communication...

To me the Mandate of this Project (Lets call it OpenEQ for giggles) is as follows:

"Develop and release EQEMU code, data, and quests that model the Live releases of EQ as accurately as is possible, make those releases freely available, and ensure the Community can implement working servers as easily as possible."

So here's my proposal:

- Create an OpenEQ project on GIT and fork the current EQEMU code, database, and quests into it. Or, implement someone else's code and data thats closer to Milestone 1.
- Create and host development forums and an "OpenClassic" EQEMU server
- Create a Roadmap that will track every major release of EQ starting with March 1999. Each milestone will be a release of the code, and each release will consist of code, database, and quests. So if you want to step through a complete progression, check out each milestone release, compile, load the database and install the quests. Or, hell, with a Linux server we can publish VirtualBox VMs of the complete package and serverops can just load player tables.
- All code changes need to be committed to the repository, and each milestone has a database load associated with it

Since everything is hosted on GIT, and will be freely available, no one person has control since any issues people could just start their own development fork.

So, Milestone 1 would be to build an accurate release of EQ as of March 1999.

FWIW I'm an professional server operations guy (Director level) with a development background, although my C++ is pretty rusty (15 years rusty!) - part of my reason for looking for a project is to re-engage those skills. I'm a pretty good PHP programmer tho. Most of my professional life is project management so I can add that dimension. My own server is currently aimed at modelling Velious but this to me is a more righteous project so I'd be happy to offer up my pretty recent code and database as a starting point and start moving it to Classic.

I offer up the following:

- A hosted instance of EQEMU and database to use as a main test server
- A phpBB based forum where we can interact and work out issues, post bug reports etc.
- My services to do builds of the server and deal with operational issues
- My services as Project Manager
- My services as a developer, content editor, tester

I can have the server available within a day or so. If you want to participate, great, love to have some input. If not, do your own thing. If no one jumps in, then obviously it's not a viable project. However if you jump in you commit to everything being open sourced and freely available.

Happy to adjust the above to meet the needs of the community but to me this is how to proceed. Thanks!

Regards,
Mg

PS Be quick to neither give nor take offense. Seems like we're all interested in the same goals, I'm sure we can be civil.