Discussion on Damage Bonus, Rules, and the direction of the Emulator

[Cantus]

Hey, again, Chaos!

I agree with you that the game of EQ evolved over time. Each expansion, and even tweaks between the expansions, changed how things worked and added new content (zones, races, classes, features like in-game maps, instanced zones, etc.)

In general, those changes were made with the goal of balancing out the game, and making it even more fair and fun to play. Whether or not SoE achieved these goals with all of their changes is a huge debate that this thread is probably not the right place for.

I don't think these changes were quite as earthshattering as you seem to make them out to be, Chaos. For example, I don't think that the release of EQ's next expansion will be a complete 180 degree change in the way things work. But that's just my opinion, and I respect yours.

You do have a good point in asking "Which version of EQ are we striving to emulate here?". I'm guessing that the answer is "the state of Live EQ when Titanium Edition was released", but it would be helpful to me (especially if I'm going to help contribute a bit) to have that point clarified by the senior folks involved with the project.

I understand that there are some folks who are interested in setting up and playing on highly-customized servers. Rather than thinking of it as a "them vs. us" situation, the folks who favor customization should support the efforts of the core team to build a highly stable, efficient, and feature-rich emulation of Live EQ, and then build their customizations on top of that foundataion!


P.S. I'm certainly not insulting or acting as the "grammar police", but I think the word you're looking for, Chaos, is "Canon" with one "n". That means "the standard; the officially recognized general rule".

"Cannon" with two "n"s is "a mounted gun for firing large projectiles" .

[janusd]

As I understand the situation, PEQ's purpose is to emulate the Live servers as closely as possible as they currently exist, but in order to maintain a modicum of balance and enjoyment, we move expansion by expansion in the order they were released so the people playing and testing can experience that content as if they were actual expansions just being relased. This allows us to encourage players to test the content as it comes instead of ignoring 'old' content in favor of 'new content' (IE releasing Velious and OoW at the same time would likely result in poor testing and play for Velious as people focused on getting the gear from OoW which would mean that Velious couldn't be tweaked properly). Each expansion is slowly being tuned up to its Live version circa its original tuning phase, and, in some cases its final tuning phase. This means then that we have to move slowly to ensure the project as closely resembles Live as possible. This means that we'll eventually be 100% Live, but at the moment we're sometimes forced to be 100% Live for the current expansion era. In some cases, as far as the database is concerned, we choose to make alterations to retain portions of EQ that no longer exist in their current condition (IE the database contains the code for Sleeper's v.1 and v.2 but the server runs v.2. Same with VP and I WISH PoM). The project attempts to 100% emulate Live, but it's a VERY slow process. The ultimate goal is to be 100% in-line with Live's final expansion, but at the moment we're hindered by the Titanium client (the current goal is to be 100% Titanium until someone can update our client and we can get a new sniffer). Until Sony ceases releasing expansions, we will not have a SET goal, but we will have an ideal goal. Were someone to take the upcoming expansion (4 weeks!) which contains all previous expansions and systems and update the EMU system to support it AND create a new sniffer that works with the new expansion AND can convert the information into a format that could easily be imported into the EMU and various databases, then things would go a lot faster... until then, though, we move as we can towards that good and final goal. I just hope we can complete the project before Sony makes the final move and pulls the last Live server some time in the future. We are, after all, on a time limit goverened by subscribing players. So... ya know... bribe your coder friends to update the client, the sniffer, and a packet converter.

[ChaosSlayer]

Originally Posted by Cantus

In general, those changes were made with the goal of balancing out the game, and making it even more fair and fun to play.

some die hard vanila pre-kunark fans will say that this changes RUINED eq, starting from the point when iksar were allowed to be monks

I don't think these changes were quite as earthshattering as you seem to make them out to be, Chaos. For example, I don't think that the release of EQ's next expansion will be a complete 180 degree change in the way things work. But that's just my opinion, and I respect yours.

the were gradual and they did happen over course of 9 years, so if you kept playing all this time they did not come as surprise to you, but if you compare eq in 99 and eq today- there is a significant diffirence. I don't have a comprehensive list of things atm, but there were number of things which Brad/Soe keept saying "will never happen" back in a day and then one day the "vision" changed and those things were implemented.

You do have a good point in asking "Which version of EQ are we striving to emulate here?". I'm guessing that the answer is "the state of Live EQ when Titanium Edition was released", but it would be helpful to me (especially if I'm going to help contribute a bit) to have that point clarified by the senior folks involved with the project.

This is gona sound evil, but in no way an attack on you, but... the numbers for DMGB were "carefuly recorded from LIVE" when? Recently right? But EQ Titatium is what 2 years old? This means that they infact invalid
I do know that you guys trying to be as close as posible, but the thing is whatever changes SOE makes - they make it with current content in mind.
As dificulty of eq endgame grew - so grew the bonuses to the players.
And this is one of those little tiny things which "gradualy change" and pile up until you arive at "180 degres turn around" I mentioned.
And it simply will never stops.

And thats prety much when i decided that I am done listening to SOE "vision". Cuase SOE have all the power to change things, for better or worse, and all you can do is keep paying your $15 a month hopping the things will turn this way than another.

And this where I realise what TREMENDOUS potential project like Emu has, when you take the SPIRIT of IDEA behind Everquest but fine tune it in such way that it precisly matches your own vision, wihout having to live in terror that tomorrow your class going to get nerfed or something, and all you worked for (as a player) is complitly pointless now

And thats the idea I am trying to spread

I understand that there are some folks who are interested in setting up and playing on highly-customized servers. Rather than thinking of it as a "them vs. us" situation, the folks who favor customization should support the efforts of the core team to build a highly stable, efficient, and feature-rich emulation of Live EQ, and then build their customizations on top of that foundataion!

Well, let us hope that we all can contribute something to each other final goals

P.S. I'm certainly not insulting or acting as the "grammar police", but I think the word you're looking for, Chaos, is "Canon" with one "n". That means "the standard; the officially recognized general rule".

"Cannon" with two "n"s is "a mounted gun for firing large projectiles" .

I like to spell things with 2 "n"s cause it makes then sound more impressive (j/K) thanks for correctin me =)

[Cantus]

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayer

This is gona sound evil, but in no way an attack on you, but... the numbers for DMGB were "carefuly recorded from LIVE" when? Recently right? But EQ Titatium is what 2 years old? This means that they infact invalid

No, that's not the case. The damage bonuses in this function are consistent with both Live as it currently exists today, as well as Live when EQ Titanium was released. Furthermore, the actual damage bonus added by this function is consistent with the amount of damage bonus displayed on weapons in-game when you right-click on them.

What changed was the way Damage Bonuses were calculated for new levels when those new levels were unlocked, and that's what makes the formula such a mess. For example, when Kunark was released, the damage bonus formula used for levels 28-50 was not changed, but a new formula for 50-60 was implemented. When PoP was released, a new formula for 60-65 came out. That kinda thing. That's why we use many lookup tables in this function -- because there is no one single, simple, fast formula.

But those formulae have never changed retroactively, to the best of my knowledge. That is, if I logged in my level 30 Monk today on Live, his 2H weapon would have exactly the same Damage Bonus as it did five years ago.

[ChaosSlayer]

that part I was not aware of, thanks for bringing it up =)
Back to DMGB - I juts want to make sure that as level goes beyond 80, the 2hs bonus will not start falling behidn 1hs, as I belive you previusly pointed out