New Concept: Proximity Spawning (to reduce bandwidth usage)

[trevius]

We have already been testing a quest system to depopall() on all trash mobs when a boss mob or named is being killed. It seems to completely stop all lag as compared to previously people would go LD and lag extremely bad in some cases.

But, I really don't like the quest solution, because then anyone else in the same zone will then see an empty zone, which not only looks bad, but also lets them roam freely without clearing anything and basically negates all of the work to create the trash mobs in the first place.

Any special settings like the radius_spawn idea or freezing them to stop all AI and pathing would have to be specified by a setting in the NPC_types table so it could be done on a per mob basis. Then you can decide which ones you want to be affected by any of these ideas, and which ones to remain normal all of the time. So, bosses, scripted NPCs and maybe some roamers might want to have this setting turned off, but other than that, almost all trash mobs aren't always needed.

By turning off the AI or freezing the mobs like KLS mentioned, that might help the server performance, but I honestly don't see any issues at all lag-wise on my local lan, ever. I only ever hear about the lag, so it is pretty obviously a bandwidth issue. I have 1MB upload bandwidth from my ISP, which is fairly decent as far as home connections go. If 1MB up can have lag during a raid of about 3 groups with maybe 70 people logged into the server, then I think there could be some definite improvements to improve bandwidth utilization.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to not send regular updates of the current location of every spawn in the zone every second to every character in the zone. So, the only solution I can think of is to not have trash mobs spawn unless a player is within range. The only other option would be if someone could figure out a way for the server to only send location updates for NPCs within a radius of the client.

[AndMetal]

I wonder if we might be able to look at this a different way, especially since this seems to be more a bandwidth issue than a processing issue (which could also explain the issues with Warrior Rampage in AoE situations).

While roaming around in a zone, what kind of information is transmitted to the client on a regular basis? Spawn information, etc? Also, are there any kind of limits? So, is everything being sent to everyone, or are there proximity limits on these? If there aren't proximity limits, I think that's where we need to start.

Anyways, just a thought...

[KLS]

Spawn info is sent on login and new spawn. Or if a spawn has to change shape for some reason, typically walking around you wont see many spawn infos. Movement updates are the big thing... which if it's a mob far away they only send movement updates once every 60 seconds, close npcs ie ones you can see send movement updates every few seconds.

[trevius]

Maybe if there was a way to adjust how far away the regular movement updates get sent. I use MQ which helps a ton with developing content and standing in the main part of Dreadspire, I can see probably 50 mobs in the entire main section all moving very accurately and seemingly sending multiple updates per second. It seems to be somewhere around 800 distance away. I can only ever see a max of 400 distance in the entire zone since it is all indoors. So, if I could somehow set that range on a per zone basis, that might help a bit. Also, if it was possible, I wouldn't mind the option to completely disable the zonewide 1 minute updates on a per zone basis. I don't see why my client even needs to be aware of mobs outside of my visual range other than for MQ purposes, which really has no part in actual game play.

I know that the rule for it could be adjusted, but for some zones, the location information might be more important than others. And I know for a fact that those updates are pretty heavy on the server or bandwidth. At one point, I tried setting those zonewide updates in the rules to be every 1 second, because I didn't know what it was doing exactly. With it set that way, my server was so insanely laggy that it was unplayable after a few people logged on. Even 1 time per minute, if you multiply that times 60 clients on the entire server, you are averaging a zone wide update to 1 client per second. Double the players to 120, which is about the max my server can handle and it goes up to an average of 2 zonewide updates per second.

Then, once you start factoring in combat spam that has to go out to each client, a big raid can cause a significant hit to bandwidth and performance. If all of those players were all fighting in separate areas, they would only be receiving their own combat spam, but all in a tight area, everyone gets everyone's combat spam, so it multiplies what needs to be sent by how many characters are there.

I think the AE issue with rampage is more of a server resource issue than it is on bandwidth, since AndMetal brought it up. The main reason to think this is because it is one of the few things that can an will crash a zone if you have too many mobs in the rampage pull. I don't think bandwidth can cause a zone crash, just cause lag and LDs. Only high running processes or bugs can cause crashes, or at least that is my guess. I think a rampage pull of 30+ mobs is just too much combat spam all hitting at the exact same time for the server to handle at once.

I am sure there are some solutions to help this stuff considerably. Even a 20% decrease in bandwidth could make a considerable difference on home run servers that don't have practically unlimited upload speeds. Right now, I think players seem to average about 5k per player on normal use. Though, that probably spikes up a lot during large raids.

[trevius]

Woot! I think I found part of what KLS is talking about:

zone/updatemgr.cpp

//squared distances for each level
//these values are pulled out of my ass, should be tuned some day
const float UpdateManager::level_distances2[UPDATE_LEVELS]
	= { 50*50, 250*250, 500*500, 800*800 };
	
//delay between sending packets in each level, in ms
//its best if they are all multiples of UPDATE_RESOLUTION
//these values are pulled out of my ass, should be tuned some day
const int32 UpdateManager::level_timers[UPDATE_LEVELS+1]
	= { UPDATE_RESOLUTION,		//.3s
		2*UPDATE_RESOLUTION, 	//.6s
		3*UPDATE_RESOLUTION,	//.9s
		9*UPDATE_RESOLUTION,	//~2s
		34*UPDATE_RESOLUTION	//~10s
	  };

I like how he says they are pulled out of his ass and need to be tuned lol. If there was a way to set these on a per zone basis, I think that would be amazing. If that would be too complex, I think these could each easily just have rules tied to them so you can adjust them all manually to find which is the best combination.

I think more could definitely be done, but I will have to look into finding other parts that could possibly be tweaked further.

[So_1337]

We have already been testing a quest system to depopall() on all trash mobs when a boss mob or named is being killed. It seems to completely stop all lag as compared to previously people would go LD and lag extremely bad in some cases.

Just a quick note on that. We used to have trouble on our server before we had our DS3 line installed. We'd have too many players whacking on things in heavily NPC-populated zones. Killing Yelinak in particular comes to mind. Now, for Skyshrine, our trash mobs were already all set to a 30 minute repop. We'd do a #depopzone and then manually spawn him so we'd have a chance at killing him without us all getting bugged out. That worked out fine, unless we were slow and the zone repopped before then. At that point, the zone is completely overwhelmed, and everything will freeze for a good long while. 500+ NPCs in Skyshrine =X

Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm sure that if you're doing this, you've already thought of it, but wanted to suggest that if you use quest::depopzone that you make sure to disable the respawn timers until the boss has died, and then re-enable them. Though that only sounds useful for fights that aren't intended to have the added difficulty of add control =)

Just my thoughts, this sounds like a really good suggestion if a reasonable way to implement it can be found.

[kayen85]

Working with Trev on this,

We have as system set up atm that if an event is engaged, we do a zone wide depop of all trash mobs using quest::depopall(npcid) for each trash, then pop some KOS guard mobs in specific locations so people can't just run around the zone with a few others things built in to avoid abuse. When event is over zone repops all the trash with quest. This works fine. But obviously the flaws are there which is it really affects any other group in the zone forcing a 8-10 minutes of down time. Plus if you want to do an event with smaller force it could take even longer, and then if your moving from event to event quickly you could basically have the zone locked up for a while making it unplayable by others. Is that worth it so everyone doesn't have a 70% chance to lock up/crash when fighting the event, probably but its not the ideal solution.

There are other ways around it which are better, but just require more advanced planning and coding useing standard scripts, set up certain areas of the zone with only certain NPCid's then have quest mobs spawn and check aggro if any players are in that area and if its clear then depop it, otherwise leave it up and hope by the time they are done in the area the event is over.

But really all these solutions are cumbersome and were praying we can get something more solid.

[ChaosSlayer]

anoher thing: you think turning OFF Npc buff friends would help with the lag?
Since npc needs to not only buff all their friends but also keep a watch when their buffs expire etc

[cubber]

This sounds interesting but I have a few questions to think about.

1. If this despawns mobs that are not in a certian radius of the player then couldn't this approach be used as an exploit? If a player is trying to camp a named mob and the mob is not up, couldn't the player just venture out of the place holder's radius to despawn it? Triggering a respawn when they come back into it's radius, essentialy cycling the camp without killing anything? What about named mobs like CT that are only supposed to spawn on a schedual?

Or will the "despawned mob" basically be "cached" until it is revealed again, killed, or cycled by spawn timer?

2. What about respawn times in general? Could this be used to get around respawn times?

3. Also in comparison to WoW, I think that the spawn radius would have to be quite larger than what they impliment. It is quite annoying to be able to see a few hundred yards away but not see any mobs in that area until you are almost right on top of them.

[Rocker8956]

This does not effect if the mob is spawned. Basically the mob is still there but the player does not get updates on the mob's position unless the player is within so many feet of the mob.

One question I have though, does this effect track?

[cubber]

Ahh that makes more sense then.