What are you looking for in a server?

[DanCanDo]

Don't get me wrong when I say this, but sometimes I think people who are thinking of
starting up a server, their main focus is the infamous "player count". Sure, it's nice if
you get a decent player base, but myself, that is last on the list of priorities for doing
something I enjoy. Even it sits for a few years with an average of 5-10 casual players,
at least I am enjoying it. That was whole reason I created it. Any editing, creating or
customization I do on the server, is not being done to attract players. Its being done
to make the server more fun and interesting. Even though I have a desire to share it
and welcome other players, if I created a server that I didn't enjoy myself, the server
would not exist, no matter how many players were on it.
As for the player base on p99, advertsing can yank them in, but they all love that era
and that kind of grind. I love some of it but not all of it. Last time I was on p99, I sat
for 2-3 hours /ooc'ing "donating for buffs", didn't happen. Not my kind of game. But
thats just me. The rest are there because they love it (I assume anyway).

[gravystain]

I think Shards of Dalaya did an awesome job making its own variation of Everquest. I played on that server for a long time. I've played on some of these other projects that clearly label what their server is and have had brief moments of fun also but always get tired of easily moving through content boxing or soloing. I assume a lot of other people feel the same way or these servers would have much higher populations. The last server I played on I had really high hopes for. It was just a classic server with all the modern bells and whistles, new trading skill windows, targeting rings etc. Their population went to 0 after tweaking HP regen values to try and make warriors and hybrids solo better. This change alone only made the solo classes more powerful and while yes the melee classes could solo a little better they still didn't because it was too slow. Meanwhile level 12 mage pets were soloing the entire unrest castle. My point is that i dont believe there is a happy medium in making a semi classic server. A lot of people in this thread have expressed the opinion that they think all classes should be able to solo. The amount of changes it would take to make a rogue be able to solo are huge. When they finally get to a good soloing tweak for them the casters, hybrids and monks have then turned into Greek gods. I think if someone wants to make a server like this it could be really fun but it needs to be marketed as something new and fresh, not a walk down memory lane of the Everquest we all knew and loved. My advice to some of you server devs is to not lose your identity as a server. The identity crisis bug hit my last server and it didn't go well.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by gravystain

I think Shards of Dalaya did an awesome job making its own variation of Everquest.

+1 for SOD

Their population went to 0 after tweaking HP regen values to try and make warriors and hybrids solo better. This change alone only made the solo classes more powerful and while yes the melee classes could solo a little better they still didn't because it was too slow. Meanwhile level 12 mage pets were soloing the entire unrest castle. My point is that i dont believe there is a happy medium in making a semi classic server. A lot of people in this thread have expressed the opinion that they think all classes should be able to solo. The amount of changes it would take to make a rogue be able to solo are huge. When they finally get to a good soloing tweak for them the casters, hybrids and monks have then turned into Greek gods. I think if someone wants to make a server like this it could be really fun but it needs to be marketed as something new and fresh, not a walk down memory lane of the Everquest we all knew and loved.

I agree. You can't just take base EQ DB tweak a few settings I have a new generation MMO. EQ was designed with group-hard core mindset (albeit with few OP classes like necro) which can't just tweak on the fly.
You have to sit down with a spreadsheet, put in values, evaluate class ideas and methods - essentially do this from the SCRATCH (yes, thats exactly my plans for my own server). You may still use similar spell names for the sake of lore consistency, but you have re-balance ENTIRE class system for it to work right.

If you reduce base mobs hp by half - you powering up wizards and underpowering DoT clases. If you give players ultra-high regeneration and planar weapon at level 1 - you powering up melees, while casters fall down. Etc.

My advice to some of you server devs is to not lose your identity as a server. The identity crisis bug hit my last server and it didn't go well.

THIS. You know what killed EQ2 for me? Their envy for WoW population and attempt to attract more players from WoW by emulating WoW. At the end they failed - why would WoW players play WoW-clone when they can play WoW? And at the same time they alienated EQ2 players who actually liked it the way it was.

Formulate your vision, your system and your methods - and stick to it. Yes there is always room for adjustment and improvement, but don't turn the ship 180 degree around because 1 guy doesn't like it.

[gravystain]

Well said. I'm a sucker for classic EQ but have been following the RebuildEQ server for a month now and it looks super cool. Couldn't be further away from my 'normal' preference but the way they market their product i feel i know what i'm getting into before its even in alpha and look forward to trying it. Find your niche and embrace it. Whether its a era based classic server, pvp, custom, solo, or fun server. Know what you are and just keep polishing your product. There's always going to be people that say they want this or that feature or xyz is why the population isnt growing fast enough but ive found for every person you gain from yeilding to a few suggestions you lose someone who came to the server for its initial concept.

[DanCanDo]

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayerZ

don't turn the ship 180 degree around because 1 guy doesn't like it.

THAT ^^^^ is paramount to any server OP's goals/visions/happiness

[Darkscis]

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayerZ

Formulate your vision, your system and your methods - and stick to it. Yes there is always room for adjustment and improvement, but don't turn the ship 180 degree around because 1 guy doesn't like it.

100% this. This is what killed off Elysium. We were trying to accomodate/change/re-code to satisfy every single complaining voice on the forums instead of staying true to exactly how we envisioned the server going. This left us with half finished/unpolished content, things all over the place and a general lack of focus going forward. We also ended up working on content that we ourselves had no interest in doing, which means as Dev's we lost motivation because it wasn't fun for *US*.

Now I digress because this has ventured off topic a bit, sorry about that!

What I personally look for in a server: Basically what I originally said. As an aging player with commitments and time constraints I look for a server that allows me to progress at my own pace. I don't like to group up not because I am anti-social but because I don't like the feeling I get when I have to let a group down by suddenly having to log off. This means I really only even look at servers that are flagged as "solo". I don't think that players should be "punished" because of this play style though - so my ideal server would be one that you can progress and achieve everything 100% solo if that is your desire. Make it take 10x as long if you don't group, or have alternate methods for group/solo or whatever - just as long as I can achieve everything someone who groups can **EVENTUALLY** I am happy. I don't expect handouts, I don't expect it to be easy to solo but I don't like it when I am forced to group (for example, via script mechanics, min raid requirements - that kind of thing).

So an example of this is what we tried to achieve on Elysium. We had 2 factions in our custom content; Vampire Hunters and Vampires. If you worked for the Vampire Hunters you could "raid" (group content) Dreadspire Keep and loot your drops as normal after defeating the encounters. For those that didn't want to group, you could work for the Vampires instead. This was our "solo" version of content. You essentially did a quest for each of those same bosses in Dreadspire Keep and earnt their drops through that, rather than killing them. All players ended up with the same gear, but the solo players had to work a little longer at it by first doing faction work to become Ally and then by actually completing the quest. The raiders were able to go in, learn the encounters and get their loot the normal way.

[DanCanDo]

Here's another thread from this year to add to this topic:
http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40320

Called "What are you looking for"

[NostalgiaEQ]

I'm thinking that a classic minimal raid server would allow for soloing. From what I've heard soloing really only becomes impossible after lvl 50 so if the max level is 50 then? I'm going to start playing a rogue so I can understand the issues better. Never played a pure melee before but I can't comprehend how it could be impossible, just kill blues/light blues and bind wounds right?

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by NostalgiaEQ

I'm thinking that a classic minimal raid server would allow for soloing. From what I've heard soloing really only becomes impossible after lvl 50 so if the max level is 50 then? I'm going to start playing a rogue so I can understand the issues better. Never played a pure melee before but I can't comprehend how it could be impossible, just kill blues/light blues and bind wounds right?

There are 2 inherited problems with this in original EQ:

1) When Kunark was released, to stop high level players from progressing new content too quickly, the hit points and dps of all 50+ mobs was made MUCH HIGHER than what natural progression should have been. Basically, if we assume that every level from 40 to 50, mobs power increased by say 2% per level, then from 50 to 60, it started rising by like 5% per level. This trend was continued with each next expansion, and specially noticeable in Luclin, PoP and GoD.

So, To make any sort of SMOOTH progression from 1 to whatever your max level is, you need to formulate a new formula for mobs hp and dps.


2) Another inherited problem with base EQ is - "pure melee" classes. These classes suffer from the fact that they have NO REAL ABILITIES, from just activating auto-attack and hitting KICK once in a while. (Warriors are the worst, and Monks slightly better in this regard) The entire core structure from pure melees needs to be re-made from scratch, so player gets some other buttons to push, other than a kick and taunt.

For example in my server plans is to scrap Warrior template completely, and use Paladin/SK as a template base for a new "warrior".
Or, for example, see how EQ2 made their rogues/brigands.


These of course only my own views on the issue

[Maze_EQ]

Why would you scrap warrior when endurance can be used the same as mana?

Make the abilities discs.

You can make a disc cast a buff that doesn't get used by a timer.

There's absolutely no reason to remove any melee classes because "mana" is a problem.

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by Maze_EQ

Why would you scrap warrior when endurance can be used the same as mana?

Make the abilities discs.

You can make a disc cast a buff that doesn't get used by a timer.

There's absolutely no reason to remove any melee classes because "mana" is a problem.

Yes, I know - you can use endurance instead of mana as source of energy.
I agree.
There are however some limitation related to Discs - unlike spells, they are more limited number of "empty slots" for discs (I believe its like 100?), and you can't delete them. Which means you can't give them an increasing progression as with spells (firebolt 1,2,3,4 etc), which leads to - you most likely will have to design them in such way that there are few of them and they improve with level by themselves.

You could probably make an npc or a custom command to reset/delete Discs but this could be another hassle for players.
On other hand, perhaps a warrior/monk/rogue/zerker doesn't really need as many abilities as say - Enchanter. So yeah this could be worked around.

I guess my most significant grief with pure melees is over a Monk - an amazing class in every way, that suffers from WASTED abilities. You get these cool monk skills every 5 levels (round kick, eagle strike, etc), but once you get a new one, previous one gets obsolete, people auto-switch and never go back. I believe they tried to give earlier abilities more value with AAs, but they didn't really worked out.

What would be better if each of these fancy strikes would not just do damage but have a unique perk to it (stun, interrupt, debuff etc) so you wouldn't just press the one that does more damage.

[NostalgiaEQ]

Good insight guys. Thats interesting to know they screwed with the xp system past 50 which was probably the single thing that killed EQ the most, that and constantly adding more zones as the game population was falling. I can see how this made them have to add overpowered mercs to make it possible to progress and whatnot.

I love the idea of stamina bieng melee mana bar. Do abilities like kick and stuff use stamina already? If so it should be easy enough to just add in a few extra abilities and call it a day. I don't see the need to totally revamp it, they just need a basic boost.

[DanCanDo]

Back on Live in 2003, I solo'ed a war most of the way to lvl 55. Wasn't from lack of LFG.
I could of very slowly kept going, but had to start grouping. But it was difficult to find
groups, everyone was boxing, so I figured, well, if you can't beat'em, join'em. So thats
what I did, started boxing.

[NostalgiaEQ]

All good things must end, so perhaps everquest mechanics just don't work correctly past a lvl 50 softcap. Brad McQuaid himself said that when making panthepn he was best at balancing around lvl 50 so mabye the game was designed for lvl 50 and doesn't work well when you stretch it above that.

[DanCanDo]

Well, it was fine for a group or a guild raiding, but there was just too many people
wanting to solo and/or box toons to have their own group (with mercs).
I see more of it now, even on some of these servers. No interest in grouping. And
a lot of times, it really isn't a problem with people not having time, they just don't
want to play with others. A lot want to box/solo their their way up to the bosses.
I've even seen some of these servers starting out with a 2-3 box limit, then raising
it after to 6 or something because it's high demand.