someone fucked up the wiki...

[wraithlord98]

I spent over 16 hours looking through the wiki (what a piece of work that is let me tell you).. I lost count how many hours I spent rummaging through the forums.. I understand the devs are busy doing other stuff and I don't expect them to simply cough anything answers or to drop everything to answer a question they consider mundane; petty; and beneath them. But that gives them NO right to simply shit on someone else with an unbelievable attitude like they are the prima donna of coding.

I came here with the intentions to learn and to try and support the community and hopefully contribute something back in an effort to move this project forward. Instead - I'm met with criticism - skepticism - and what's worse I'm treated like garbage and I'm insulted. And you wonder why there's so few folks willing to contribute or step forward to help? I wonder just how many other folks were treated this very same way and run off by the attitude.

You want contributions? Here you go..... Here's a big one to start with.. What I've found is 90% of the stuff in the forums is out of date - so badly out of date in fact - that it has no real relevance to EQEmu as it stands now... So why is it still accessible?? Would you keep old and broken car parts around if you knew they couldn't ever be used again??? I think not.. where are your forum moderators?

There's so much crap (and yes - it's utterly crap) that a few of us in an effort to make heads or tails out of all of it - posted what was relavent to a personal website so that we could eventually update the wiki. And what do we get for making an effort? Shit on. Insulted. Belittled. Because we use a personal website to sort it - we're being anti community and we're stealing intellectual property? Who's more anti community... the one's with the attitude running off everyone and anyone who might help.. or the folks who are in the process of sorting out valid info/data from the invalid info/data? I could have just as easily saved the info to my hard drive.. what media I choose to sort the info out with is IRRELEVANT - because once done - it was going to be put back into the common files - in this case - the wiki (which is an utter piece of shit - anyone and everyone can make changes to it - and they may not have a clue on what they're doing). Point in case - there's around 5 or 6 different tutorials on setting up your own server.. now which one is up to date and 100% correct? Now - out of those.. how many folks just coming into the project would know which one is the most up to date and correct one? Point made.

And while we're at it.. let's discuss ownership of intellectual property - and the fit that was utterly thrown over code relating to a program we had been searching for... if you want to get technical about it - this entire community is based off of stolen intellectual property... Debate it.. Rename it.. use the wording you like to make you sleep well at night... Whatever floats your boat.. boil it down to what it is - Sony/Verant came up with the idea of EverQuest and all it's rich in game history and we have stolen it - but I'm not here to split hairs about that. Extremely few folks knew that EQExtractor was a personal pet project of FNW's.. all we knew is that we had found links to it all over the damn place - that it had been mentioned a lot - and it appeared to do what we were trying to do - which was to break out the data out of packet logs so that we could populate our server and fix various things like missing doors, incorrect spawn locations etc. Those very same posts in the forums point back to the CVS holdings and how to retrieve it.. and we stole it because we simply downloaded it to use it? Um - I think someone needs to take a hard look at the facts.

I'd like to say that instead of throwing a fit about it - why not just simply say that it was something that you had personally developed and that you didn't wish to release the code or share the program? Short.. sweet.. simple.. to the point.. and above all NOT done in an insulting or degrading manner... Rip apart the code to learn? I'm supposed to rip apart code I don't really understand - that I'm not supposed to have - and that's incomplete.. and I'm to learn from that? Ok - can we say - triple standards?

I'm not taking sides here.. things were said on both sides that were wrong.. and I'm not going to sit here and point fingers about who said what and diw what first to start all of this mess.. think what you will.. but at this point I highly doubt I'm going to make any sort of effort to contribute after how I got treated yesterday - and it's no wonder anyone else does for that matter. I did NOTHING WRONG but ask questions while trying to learn and for that - I got what I did yesterday... If that's how I'm to be treated for trying - I think I'll be one of the freeloaders tks and pls because there's less hassle involved.

[image]

Obviously I missed what happened yesterday :o

[wraithlord98]

Here's what happened (chatlog):

http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/F56aOR50.html

[image]

Lol you sure caught Fathernitwit in a bad mood, welcome to the new world of EQEMu, since your join date is October 2002 I think you know it was not always this way.

[gottasummer]

If I was a forum supermoderator, all of those outdated posts would be gone :P

Anyway, just live with it, look for build numbers at the top... the community I will admit seems to be dieing compared to before, when we had literally one hundred or MORE servers online at once, often much more... and MORE devs.

[Windcatcher]

And while we're at it.. let's discuss ownership of intellectual property - and the fit that was utterly thrown over code relating to a program we had been searching for... if you want to get technical about it - this entire community is based off of stolen intellectual property... Debate it.. Rename it.. use the wording you like to make you sleep well at night... Whatever floats your boat.. boil it down to what it is - Sony/Verant came up with the idea of EverQuest and all it's rich in game history and we have stolen it - but I'm not here to split hairs about that. Extremely few folks knew that EQExtractor was a personal pet project of FNW's.. all we knew is that we had found links to it all over the damn place - that it had been mentioned a lot - and it appeared to do what we were trying to do - which was to break out the data out of packet logs so that we could populate our server and fix various things like missing doors, incorrect spawn locations etc. Those very same posts in the forums point back to the CVS holdings and how to retrieve it.. and we stole it because we simply downloaded it to use it? Um - I think someone needs to take a hard look at the facts.

There is no reason whatsoever that anyone needs to make a server that uses their zones and packet data (spawns, door locations, loot, you get the pitcure). Anyone who has a problem with that should go download OpenZone (and the sample zones I've made for it), make some more zones (like Scorpious2k and others have), and make your own database, with all your own stuff. I'd be happy to talk people through the process, and I'm sure there are others here who have gone down the same road who would be amenable to that sort of thing as well. Collecting packets for the sake of content is not necessary at all. You can even make all your own items in the item database so as not to use theirs (heck, I think there's even a spell editor available here somewhere for making all your own spells). A lot of us here, while not *server devs*, are committed to creating the tools and content for playing without using any SOE property (if some kind soul could make some sample creature models we can tackle that as well).

[solid11]

Way I see it is, there is no "Join Premium Membership" on the main page of this site. Meaning, you get what you get-it's free...

No one is paid to keep everything spic and span, shiny, new and current. If you can filter through the endless posts and documents and figure it out and get things working, then you deserve to be here.

When I was new to the community, and after seeing the flames some newbs have gotten off here for their first post, I was affraid to ask any stupid questions. I just looked it up and figured it out. Took me 2 months before I even had a server up and I tell you what, I was never so excited or proud of myself.

Just trying to say don't "expect" anything on here. Also be grateful for what others have done, and try to do things for yourself. You will feel better about it in the end.

so am I sopose to go through 4-5 years of posts to decide what is "good" enough to stay and what isnt?

I am the only active Forum Admin, and there is 1 active forum moderator, to deal with over 100 new posts a week, on top of jobs / school / family we have.

The wikki was added and all the tutorial marked bad just so people would have something as updated as THEY WANTED, dont need to be a forum moderator to fix it, so instead of complaining about stuff FIX IT!!

[RangerDown]

The tutorial section of the forum does have some historical significance, and it's not our thing to go deleting records of discussion. The posts in the Tutorial sections won't be going anywhere soon, whether you want them to or not.

We did what we could to try and make it clear that what's in there is outdated, both by (1) making a nice sticky at the top, and (2) locking all tutorial forums into read-only.

If you have any suggestion on how we can make clearer that we've phased out the tutorial section, please feel free to say so. (No, we're not going to touch every post in that area.) But neither development nor the moderators are going to respond to any more complaint that the "tutorial section [in the forums] is outdated." We already know it's outdated -- we're just curious as to why YOU didn't know.

[gottasummer]

Originally Posted by mattmeck

so am I sopose to go through 4-5 years of posts to decide what is "good" enough to stay and what isnt?

I am the only active Forum Admin, and there is 1 active forum moderator, to deal with over 100 new posts a week, on top of jobs / school / family we have.

The wikki was added and all the tutorial marked bad just so people would have something as updated as THEY WANTED, dont need to be a forum moderator to fix it, so instead of complaining about stuff FIX IT!!

No need to get mad.

My point was that there are many old topics, I wouldn't mind helping out.

FatherNitwit had told me to talk to him in about two weeks or so, if I am still up for it, he might consider it.

All that my point was, there is a lot of information that is exactly the same, which I have found to confuse many people, including myself. By taking time gradually to remove outdated information, and move newer information to the wiki, but still allowing tutorials on the forums, all of this could be prevented.

My idea:
In the tutorials section, have different forum per version, one for 6.1, 6.2, etc, this way, when a build is considered dead, you can just mark it as read-only.

[Howndawg]

FNW
In that log it shows you claiming these programs as yours, how are they yours when they clearly state all over the site that other people are the ones who developed them and released them? Just because someone releases, then leaves the project doesnt mean you claim it as yours, alot of this stuff in this emu are being claimed as eqemus when alot of this is straight from ethernalquest.
Dont be taking credit for stuff others have developed and call it your own..... Im not saying it all is not yours, 60% is yours 40% is others.

If all the people who developed all these programs come back to see that eqemu is taking credit for everythign they made that they havnt, they wouldnt be to happy. Neither would you if i go around claiming eqemu as mine.....

yeha i know the answer is gonna be "but why would they all come back all at once?" or something to that effect. Dont be mad cause of what i posted but jsut think before you start claiming it as yours.

[wraithlord98]

I've stated in several posts elsewhere - as well as in the chat rooms.. last time I was involved in this project - it was on release 0.2.0 or something or other? The current release is 0.6.3? Even then I was still just trying to learn.. I'm still trying to learn.. And that was the whole point - I got slammed dunked for asking questions trying to learn - because I couldn't find the answers in the coveted wiki and the forums even after searching for hours on end because of the mess they're in.. You say fix them.. I say sure - all's fine and well with that - but I can't fix what I don't know is broke.. I now know some of the things that are broke by going through it - but since a lot of it is all jumbled in one giant mess - was easier to just sort it out to another website for the time being.

Folks say rip the code apart - learn that way.. well I can't sit there and off the top of my head say I need to learn one particular thing or another without first seeing what the overall thing involves.. it'd be like baking a cake without knowing the ingrediants.. it goes much smoother seeing what it is that you need - then you gather the ingrediants and combine them so you get the desired results. Coding is way above my head - sure.. but I'm willing to try and learn.. give me a clue and point me in the right direction - that's all I've asked. I've never expected anything to just be handed to me.

And to answer the questions as to why packet sniffing and pulling the content from live over - easy enough.. I said I'd like to learn - not put myself through hell making thousands upon thousands of entries needed to populate the zones to a point where they were playable and entertaining. I've seen the data structure of the Emu.. I've worked with it.. By no means do I understand all of it. I'd like to - and that takes time. I just figured it would be a lot easier pulling content from live and porting it to the dbase (easier said than done).

I'd just like to say for the record - I never intended for this to turn into World War 3.. things were said on both sides that shouldn't have been said.. tempers flaired and we let it get the best of us.. but damn it - you want my help - tell me how I could best help you out.. if sorting through the forums is how I can best help - then just tell me. Don't just criticize me for not contributing... there's more than 1 way to make contributions even if it doesn't directly involve coding.

As for suggestions? I'd suggest you take all the old posts and archive them so that the relevant information can be reposted, stickied, organized into the wiki or whatever it is you think would be the best way to organize it - which is why we chose a new website.. clean slate.. not cluttered to hell.. makes it way easier to organize. You can criticize me all you like about choosing to host it on a new website - but it's been highly effective.. and if you don't believe me about our intentions to get it back into the wiki - ask Nicholas (as much as you hate the hell out of him right now); those were our intentions from the start. As to the wiki getting screwed with like it did - I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Short of it is this.. believe what you like.. criticize all you want.. I did what I did for a reason. I had good intentions - I don't care what you choose to believe - but right now I got a bitter taste in my mouth from everything and I'm not sure exactly what it is I'm going to do.

[solid11]

You do realize this is a "game" emulation..........game. You know, an entertainment pastime? It sounds like your about to cry over this. Move on man. You don't want to develop ulcers or anti-social behavior over crap like this do you? If it pisses you off then just remove eqemu from your favorites list. Just that easy. Don't let if affect you as much as your making it.

Ok a few points, making a diferent forum for each version would just confuse people more, not less.

The stuff thats frustrating you people is the same stuff thats frustrated thousands of people before you, and it CANT be fixed, yes I sayd CANT.

There is hundreds of man hours already into the forums to attempt fixing the issues, it would take a person working on it full time 40+ hours a week to fix and maintain it, and we dont have the resorces to do that, and everyone offering would get fed up and leave the project like the 15 or so people who have already done just that.

Yes attitudes could be better, yes we have some rude people, but this is an open source free project, we are NOT aloud to controle who comes here unless they violate the community or open source rules.

The wikki is under everyones controle, make it the way you want it.

[gottasummer]

That is what I personally disagree with.

Not to disrespect you in any way at all, but I feel like if we were to have some people who were devoted, and be here for a while, some people who do not have a bad reputation, some people that are caring and "give a shit" about what happens, the EMU, and just other people in general.

I would not take the time to write this if I felt like this was not possible. I feel like it can be done, I feel like people in general can be nice, and can make a difference.

And by making a new forum for each version, I had forgot to mention, after a new version is put up, you lock the old one and make it invisible so nobody can view / access it.

Anyway, I personally feel like your message was rude, I feel like it could be done.

Now, 40+ hours a week for me at least would not be too hard, take about 3 or 4 hours a week on monday-friday, and take a lot longer on saturday and sunday... i have done the calculations, it should equal out to be around 40, granted some people are busy and have a social life.

One big reason why I feel like so many people have failed to suceed is because they feel like they can make a change so quickly, I personally do not set expectations of myself, I set some, but I do not set them high, I do have goals, but a few things about me that some of you probably did not know:


I tend to be a loner, and have a very little, if any, social life
I enjoy learning, and very seldom give up.
If someone respects me, or is willing to learn, I will treat them with respect as well.


I do not know why people have been joining the project, do nothing, then leave. Unfortunately for me, I tend to be an observer of human nature, I might not be as loyal as some of you may wish, but that does not excuse the fact that I feel sorrow for the developers, and I do get annoyed when people expect so much.

And how many of you post anything saying thanks, or make a donation to the developers? I doubt most of you have done that

One thing I have learned is that if you want someone to do something for you, don't nag them about it, show respect, give them space, and thank them.

There are many improvements ahead, many of you just expect something that you can click and run, and do not want to contribute. One of the advantages of an open source project is that, it is not just a group of people's project, it is all of ours, all that are willing to contribute, and if you can't do that, show support.

One thing that I hated was to see that chat log, FatherNitwit is doing all of this with hardly anything in return from most of us. I did something I doubt that any of you would consider doing, show thanks, I had made a donation to EQEmu last night.

And I can say only this, there are a couple of new features that will get all of you guys very excited shortly, especially those who have a hard time working with the source and compiling it yourself.

Come on, it is time that some of us step up and take some of the burdon, and try...

Originally Posted by mattmeck

Ok a few points, making a diferent forum for each version would just confuse people more, not less.

The stuff thats frustrating you people is the same stuff thats frustrated thousands of people before you, and it CANT be fixed, yes I sayd CANT.

There is hundreds of man hours already into the forums to attempt fixing the issues, it would take a person working on it full time 40+ hours a week to fix and maintain it, and we dont have the resorces to do that, and everyone offering would get fed up and leave the project like the 15 or so people who have already done just that.

Yes attitudes could be better, yes we have some rude people, but this is an open source free project, we are NOT aloud to controle who comes here unless they violate the community or open source rules.

The wikki is under everyones controle, make it the way you want it.