George Bush won...

[m0oni9]

Originally Posted by Melwin

What's the purpose of the Constitution?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I'm leaving soon to go out of town for this weekend, so if you want to make your point..

[Melwin]

Originally Posted by m0oni9

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I'm leaving soon to go out of town for this weekend, so if you want to make your point..

Good answer.

Now, let's narrow it down a bit:

How do you interpret the bolded part?

[Draupner]

imo it says and secure the Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, as long as you aren't gay, a woman, or some other group we hate.

[eq_addict_08]

We the People of the GOP, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish 3 or 4 anti-abortion Justices, insure domestic Divisiveness, provide for the common defence of the Iraqi oilfields, promote the general Welfare of corupt corporations, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity (as long as we agree in the way which you do it), do ordain and establish this New Constitution for the United States of America.

[eq_addict_08]

Originally Posted by m0oni9

It is what I said before: we are not in a vacuum. Example: I am a born-again Christian, trying to raise my child in a moral environment because I feel they will become a better person (more honest, etc). I am seeing what I perceive as decay in society (whether it be gay marriage or anything else). This affects my child. Define morality however you like, but the idea is the same: what one does in a society affects another. Yes, I am of the opinion that many feel that these views are being forced upon them.

Take another example: I enter into marriage. Marriage is recognized by law, but in addition I see it as a sacred institution, the foundation of society. Gay marriage weakens this insitution, thus weakening society.

This is a non sequitur in regards to gay marriage. The opinion (or law) is not that those who are gay are not equal to who are straight -- this is the implication seen by the proponents of gay marriage. The opinion is that two of the same sex should not be able to be wed. Two straight men cannot be wed; neither can two gay men. A gay man and a straight woman can. They are equal in this respect. This is different than saying that a black man or a woman is not as intelligent as a white man.

What one does in their private lives does not effect anyone else. So gays can get married. That gonna turn your straight child gay. No. So, drugs are legalize, is that gonna lead someone who is told the detriments of drug abuse (and believes them) to go out and become an sddict, No. SHeltering people from having to make moral decisions does not make them a more moral person. I believe the bible states that the thought of sin is just as sinful as the act. But, you don't actually see the thought. So, you can go on believing that the world (your child/loved one) is sin free. Your god (by your) beliefs gave you free will. The first lesson we ever learned in existance was if you say "no" people are gonna do it, just to see why...

And, on your second paragraph; I may be an idealist but I would marry for love, not sex. Your view only sees the sex act, (and imo is discusted by it) and not the love. People marry for love, and if one is gay, they do not feel that "love" for the opossite sex. Though imo you do not believe it to be love, but who are you to say what anyone else feels.

[m0oni9]

Originally Posted by Melwin

How do you interpret the bolded part?

Not to rephrase it, but I interpret it as securing blessings, which come as a consequence of liberty. The question seems more to be: what is a blessing? It again falls to interpretation. Who will decide on an interpretation, if not the majority? Either laws should or should not be controlled by the majority. It can't be both ways. If you disagree with a decision, argue to the majority, rather than isolating the minority.

Originally Posted by Draupner

imo it says and secure the Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, as long as you aren't gay, a woman, or some other group we hate.

Just so we're in the clear, I hate all gays, women, blacks, and jews. I hope to eventually die alone.

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

We the People of the GOP,

We the Liberals of the United States, in Order to prove ourselves Correct, establish a divisive Bandwagon, insure an arrogant Society, provide a Lack of foresight, promote action in spite of Consequence, and secure our Notions by agreeing with each other, do ordain and establish this Egocentric Constitution for the United States of America.

When you don't like what someone says, just misrepresent it.

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

What one does in their private lives does not effect anyone else.

Until we agree on this, we probably won't agree on much else. It's a false premise, as far as I'm concerned, so anything based on it is in question. But I continue on..

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

So gays can get married. That gonna turn your straight child gay. No.

Did I say it would? No. See above. If a child watches me pee out in my front yard, does it mean they will do the same? No. Does it have an affect on them? Note that this does not imply that every action affects society. That is not determinable.

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

SHeltering people from having to make moral decisions does not make them a more moral person. I believe the bible states that the thought of sin is just as sinful as the act.

It does not make them a moral person, definitely. Does teaching your children values, and providing for them a good example, influence them to become a "better" person? Why is there so much violence in the Middle East? Does it have anything to do with the child's parents or society?

The second statement is more or less correct, but I don't see what it has to do with anything. (I am guessing that you are referring to Matt. 5:28.) But since you are mentioning the Bible, it does have evidence of homosexuality (read Sodom and Gomorrah).

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

Your god (by your) beliefs gave you free will.

I don't know how you know my beliefs. Personally, I support determinism. I am not sure that free will (choice not determined by prior causes) exists at all.

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

The first lesson we ever learned in existance was if you say "no" people are gonna do it, just to see why...

That sounds like a cop out to avoid responsibility. The truth of the statement depends greatly on consequences (operant conditioning, for example).

Originally Posted by eq_addict_08

And, on your second paragraph; I may be an idealist but I would marry for love, not sex. Your view only sees the sex act, (and imo is discusted by it) and not the love.

What you are saying: if a man and woman marry, but a man and a man cannot, then the only factor in marriage is sex. May I say that your view of love being the only factor in marriage is based entirely on selfishness? Both are probably just as valid. By the way, I never said my view was to marry for sex only or love only.

I am taking off. Sorry for such a lengthy post. Have a good weekend, guys. You have given me some things to consider, and I appreciate it.

[mysticalninjajesus]

m0oni9 i have a question for you.. how is it you can watch aqua teen hunger force and never of smoked weed in your life?

[Zisct1]

Props to m0oni9 ^ ^ ^!!

[Baron Sprite]

What one does in their private lives does not effect anyone else.

depends if they throw radioactive materials into a pot of water and boil them, pretty sure that would effect anyone close enough.. mmm radioactive steam.

[Baron Sprite]

besides the constitution is just a piece of paper to protect slavery and plutocracy.

Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

yay for a debtor nation. ww1 england banked in their values in the usa for what.. something like 100mil gbp for military goods, we broke out then into a creditor nation, around 1970s slowed down and reverted to debtor, we're what, >7t debt now? nice common defense and general welfare note btw, that means money can be slushed about whereever.

Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

yeah when the congressional party got shanked by shays rebellion it was pretty clear to constitutional framers that they were boned without an army of their own.

Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

yeah basically you can do your own thing aslong as you do what we say.

Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

that pretty much means your ass is grass if you ever try to change the system

Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

yeah bush might want to have this tatooed on his asshole so when the saudi's are fucking it they can double check it.

Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

crap, was giving bin laden's family a free ticket out of the usa after 911 giving aid and fomfort? I think so.

Clause 2: No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

yeah anyone without money is really gonna be thinking about joining up after the age of 35. gotta keep those old rich white guys in power. by that age you've been force fed so much bullshit in your life you are all for the machine.

Clause 5: The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

basically you can't do shit about it.

Clause 2: Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

pretty much if you don't get a puppet you still have the legion to do what you want, congress is a fucking shopping mall of bribed people.

[Melwin]

Originally Posted by m0oni9

Not to rephrase it, but I interpret it as securing blessings, which come as a consequence of liberty. The question seems more to be: what is a blessing? It again falls to interpretation. Who will decide on an interpretation, if not the majority? Either laws should or should not be controlled by the majority. It can't be both ways. If you disagree with a decision, argue to the majority, rather than isolating the minority.

What if the majority suddenly decided the minorities were no longer allowed to voice their opinions, or vote? What if the majority decided that dissent was no longer allowed?

[KhaN]

Im european and glad Bush was elected, because it will enfore european cohesion, weak USA = Strong europe. But one thing i REALLY wonder is how people can vote Bush, i mean, drop the iraqi shit, and look at Bush bilan, its like the worst done by an US president. If the four next years are like the last four years, in an economic view, maybe USA will no more be the first country in the world lol.

[Baron Sprite]

maybe USA will no more be the first country in the world lol.

yeah... it will take more then 4 years to work through 11.7 trillion in market revenue a year. usa's per capita gdp is still worlds ahead of the next on the list... and yeah europe isn't really anywhere on there.

[Melwin]

Originally Posted by Baron Sprite

yeah... it will take more then 4 years to work through 11.7 trillion in market revenue a year. usa's per capita gdp is still worlds ahead of the next on the list... and yeah europe isn't really anywhere on there.

Luxembourgh is like $20000 ahead of you and Norway is equal to you according to your own intelligence.

owned by a stupid little country in the middle of Europe and a bunch of monkeys up north

[Baron Sprite]

not according to my economics textbooks.