Help Needed - Mob Modeling

[Windcatcher]

Some of us on IRC are preparing to hold a closed beta of the client we're developing, but we need help with mob models. To be legal we have to do completely without any SOE models, and that means we need replacements. So, if anyone is inclined, here's a chance where you can really help the community.

We're asking if people can devote their time and talent to donate some 3D models to the project. Just about anything can do, but our highest priorities are skeletons, roaming animals (anything you like), and any monster types you're inclined to make. We're also short on female player models, but in the grand scheme of things we don't need them right away. You don't have to worry about rigging to skeletons or animation -- our only method of importing them is through Anim8or, so unless you're using that to build your models any rigging work will be lost. Anim8or can import only certain common model types, like .3ds (which would be best).

If anyone wants to help it would be appreciated, as long as you understand that your work is for the good of the community and has to be freely usable. For poly count I'll just pull a number out of the air as I'm not a 3D expert: 1000-1500 polys would be a good ballpark, but use your own discretion. Whatever we use has to be scalable so players can go on raids, so we can't be making their graphics cards melt :P

Wind

[GeorgeS]

Wind, count me in. I am good at NPC modeling and texturing. I've completed my quest editor, and have time for modeling. I use Truespace 7.1, and with next month's 7.5 update, it will be even better. 3DS is fine. All I make is free anyway as you know...


I'm rarely on IRC, but let me know details...
GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

We have a test server running and are preparing to port some existing db work over to it for some existing OpenZone zones, but we don't have models for a lot of creatures. I have a full set of humanoid animations and it's not all that hard to rig up a model in Anim8or, but I'm a pretty poor modeler and worse texturer :P Basically we need people to tackle the artistry part and the idea is that I would try to rig what I can in Anim8or. I've also started on a series of tutorials for the next version of OpenZone that will explain how to make creature models, but it's a pretty involved process and documenting it all in the form of tutorials will take a little while. In the end, though, the central problem is that we need people who are good modelers and artists and who are willing to make models.

Since we have to import work into Anim8or the scale isn't all that important as we can rescale as we need to. For humanoid models, it would be best if they were in standard modeling form...I don't know what it's called, but basically where their arms and legs are splayed apart. That way I can rig them to my existing humanoid figure without too much fuss and the 70 or so animations I've already made should work. For non-humanoid models, I'll just have to rig them one at a time.

If you want to try your hand at rigging in Anim8or (painful though it can be), then the only rules of thumb I can think of are that the model face outward along the Z axis and that Y be up (and therefore X points to the mob's left). Because of the way Anim8or handles bone thicknesses, OpenZone does a 1/10 conversion when exporting creatures, so if you want a creature to be 5 units tall ingame then it should be 50 units tall in Anim8or. There are specific naming conventions that bones, objects, and animations need to have, all of which are documented in OpenZone 7.6, but that's not a big deal as I can rename as I need to after you submit something.

I'm not a modeling expert by any means, so if you really wanted me to answer some other question feel free to ask. I'll drop onto IRC tonight as well to see if I can help clear up what we need.

OpenZone 7.6 has all of the models I've made to date, which should give you an idea of the general orientation that I would need to fit a humanoid model to, as well as proper naming conventions. For a non-humanoid model, I have no existing template, so it's all new territory.

[GeorgeS]

I started modeling last sunday, and progress will be incremental of course, so a little at a time. The froglok model was done sunday and the head is giving me some difficulty. I will let you know via PM where you can download the work. Once the frog's textured then it's off to other ones like the bat, snake, spider, and then a few humanoid ones. I'm looking at my model repository now and looking for stuff that will work. I'll also keep the poly count under 1000 tris.

II bought another 20" display (for dual display) sunday so I have these side by side so modeling one one panel and references on another are possible. Looks like I had to go this way so I have more pro-end tools to work with. I'll show some screen captures this week

GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

WOW! I hope you didn't think you had to spend money on this, though those sound like great toys to have anyway -- I hope the wife/gf understood (grin). I cant wait to see what you come up with.

I've written four new OpenZone tutorials for mob modeling with Anim8or, but when I finished them I realized that the process was way too tedious for my liking (I usually take some shortcuts like modifying the .AN8 files directly, but they won't do for a tutorial). I've decided to make some enhancements to my software to try to make things easier:

1. Expand OpenZone's .AN8 import ability so it can handle grouped objects (partially done, can load groups as long as they aren't rotated)

2. Expand the client so it will also look for objects and creatures in separate .XWF files in the zone's .XWA archive (done; if the .XWA contains objects.xwf and/or creatures.xwf, it will load them as well).

3. Add force-loading capability to the client when dealing with .XWA files (done, but untested; requires an upgrade to OpenZone first).

4. Change OpenZone's export to .XWA so it puts objects in objects.xwf and creatures in creatures.xwf rather than putting everything in a single .xwf file.

5. Add .AN8 export capability to OpenZone. This is good to have in general but part of it is also necessary for step #6.

6. Add tools to OpenZone that tackle some of the more tedious parts of mob modeling, such as copying a model, removing all variants, copying an object to make a variant, etc. These need step #5 above since they'll involve modifying Anim8or files.

7. Rework the tutorials to use the new OpenZone features.

This will probably take a few weeks, but the results will be worth it. I can use whatever you make without all this, but these changes will make it easier for everyone else to take all of the needed steps to make mob models usable. If you want to see the models I've already made, they come with OpenZone 7.6 in the /library/creatures folder (.AN8 files are Anim8or files).

[GeorgeS]

No worries, after I sold the 98 LS1 vette, I had a few bucks to spare. Selling it made her happy and I could buy all sorts of stuff - that made me happy. I actually found her using the pc more now!

I also bought a touchtablet 2 years ago, but found it a bit clumsy for details. I am still learning the art of texturing (if there's such a thing).



When I get a prototype model ready, you can then let me know what changes need to be made. I understand humanoid models - 2 arms and 2 legs spread apart is standard. Whether you need them triangulated or not is simple for me. I can triangulate as the last step. Non humanoid models are one of many that I am working on. snakes, and bats for example, latter have wings which flap and snakes wiggle around. I guess the animation should be easy for those.



GeorgeS

[GeorgeS]

So far so good. Spectre's, and snakes are textured and done. I tried working on the frog and had real difficulty finishing the head. So far I am modeling these with some difficulty, but texturing is a real challenge. I found texturing organics pretty hard and was wondering what your work flow is.


GeorgeS

[Windcatcher]

I usually use CorelDraw for the basics, just so I have the right things in the right places and with the right colors, and then I use Paint Shop Pro for touch-up work. Unfortunately the best I can get with this method is what I included with OpenZone. Using my method works much better for things like clothing, where I can layer things and build clothing textures that reflect the cloth layers that make them up.

[GeorgeS]

I'll be looking forward to the help file.

So far, here's my progress:

1) 4 Froglok's done some with weapons (not sure if you need them equipped...)
2) 4 Snake models - done
3) 2 Spectre models - done, still being textured
4) 5 Rats fully textured - done
5) 3 Bat models - not done yet
6) 12 spiders several different ones made all textured - done
7) several Beetles - currently doing these
Lion/Tigers in queue
9) Human models (still thinking how to best do these)
etc..

Still would need to know a few things

Where do you prefer the axis center of each model? (Feet level, body level)

Size - I gues I can scale these to a given metric

Quads? - I box model using quads only. No one uses tris anymore, except for game output since most games only accept tris, or at least triangulate. What's your thought?

Textures must be in .png .bmp? in x^2 X y^2 I resume?
What's the largest texture size you can use(512x512)?

What about the export format? (I can do .3ds, .obj, maya/wavefront, .cob, .x, etc..)

As you can see there are many work flow things I would need first so when I create the exports, the models are almost ready for you out fo the 'box'


GeorgeS

[Scorpious2k]

Originally Posted by GeorgeS

So far, here's my progress:

1) 4 Froglok's done some with weapons (not sure if you need them equipped...)
2) 4 Snake models - done
3) 2 Spectre models - done, still being textured
4) 5 Rats fully textured - done
5) 3 Bat models - not done yet
6) 12 spiders several different ones made all textured - done
7) several Beetles - currently doing these
Lion/Tigers in queue
9) Human models (still thinking how to best do these)
etc..

WOW!!! Awesome!!!!!

Looking forward to seeing all this

[Windcatcher]

Wow, that's amazing!

I don't need mobs carrying weapons, as the rigging process will place phantom bones at the hands, the shield point on the arm, etc. The client looks for bones with special names to figure out where to place things like weapons and shields and how to orient them.

The axis center should be at feet level, though it isn't all that critical. When I rig it to the skeletons the skeleton base will be the real point of origin. Quads are okay, but bear in mind that OpenZone will convert everything to triangles when it exports. The file format requires triangles. As for export format, it has to be something that Anim8or can import. Other than that, I don't care which format you use. Likewise, size isn't all *that* important as I can rescale in Anim8or. I think my half-elf model is around 55 units tall, if you need a rough scale (OpenZone scales everything down by a factor of ten when exporting creatures, so 55 units in Anim8or will become 5.5 units in-game -- the reason for this is because of the way Anim8or handles bone thicknesses).

Textures need to be a power of 2 on each side. I'd prefer that they not get too big so as to not use too much texture memory when used in-game. I don't know if you're using a single texture for entire models or multiple textures, but I'm much more concerned about total size in bytes of all textures than the size of individual textures. I'd definitely recommend not going over 512x512 in any case as I want the client to run on older hardware. Also, textures need to be able to be loaded by Anim8or. I know it can't handle 32-bit .BMP textures, for instance, though it loads 24-bit just fine. I prefer .BMP or .TGA in any case, but I don't know if Anim8or can load .TGA (I've only tested it with .BMP files).

One thing to bear in mind is how the client handles variants. For instance, if you look at my goblin model, it has four variants, but the important thing to take note of is that they all use the exact same mesh -- only the textures differ. The client requires this if you want to have a creature race have several variants (body types). The Sony client is the same way, by the way: if you use a different mesh then it has to have an entirely different race ID (such as how Kunark goblins differ from old-world goblins).

Another thing that I should mention involves texture filenames. They should follow the same general naming convention as live textures use: for instance, a lion texture might be something like lioch0101.bmp, where the first three letters denote the model, the next two denote a body part, and the last four denote player faces (only used on special player models), texture variants, pieces of body parts, etc. My creature textures that come with OpenZone should serve as examples, and somewhere in its help file is an entry that describes what each of the numbers mean. It's not a catastrophe if you don't use this naming convention, but it means that I'll have to rename each texture and do it myself (and if you're using a single texture for the entire model that's fine, too, but you *have* to use separate textures for separate variants or it won't work).

[GeorgeS]

Here's a link to show my progress. I made a few more so far.
http://66.159.225.58/eqemu/oz/work_to_date.html


I'm working on a few more lower (very low) poly bats and then it's off
to make beetles, lizardmen, all sorts of winged creatures etc..
Some of these take a few hours, others like the specs took me a whole weekend to model.

I think I'm pretty late in the game to rename the textures as it's pretty hard to just get this far. My goals are to provide a very comprehensive monster set to you, and then you can go from there.

I predict that by sunday nite, I will send you as many as I have.

Enjoy the pictures.
GeorgeS

[Scorpious2k]

AWESOME!!!
<begins to drool>

[Windcatcher]

GREAT! One thing I should point out is that it would be a good idea if hands were modeled clenched, so it would look natural if they're holding a weapon. The client doesn't support different arm meshes based on whether a creature is holding something or not (the live client can't do that either). Otherwise, everything looks terrific.

My player models (human, wood elf, dark elf) come with a full set of robed textures, and the mind flayer has some of its own as well. Robed models are VERY hard to rig, but they're possible (the most important rule is that polygons between the legs must NEVER have vertices in the center but must always have them at one or the other leg instead). Of all the textures I made with CorelDraw, I think the robed ones came out the best.

For the spectres, it's a tough call as to whether or not to remove the weapons. If you leave them it's ok, but they'll never be able to carry anything else. Maybe there should be two variants, one with a scythe and one without?

Another thing I'd like to mention is that we are in no way limited to eqlive's creature races or race ID's. SimpleClient has its own XML file that links the three-character race mnemonic (e.g. ORC) to a race ID. Aside from mnemonics having to be three letters, we have complete freedom here.

[GeorgeS]

Ok, I kept as many of those requirements as possible. I checked Blender's website, and decided to DL a copy. I also finished round 1 of the modeling.

So there are around 90 models made, and all are textured. You can do as you want with them now. I think you will need to rename the textured to your convention. My modeling workflow is not condusive to the afformentioned naming however, but you can do this in blender manually. If there are any that will not work, let me know the issues and I can work around them if possible. These all load into my 3D game engine nicely, so I know they're ok there. In fact I may very likely make a demo 3D previewer...

Poly's were kept low but I decided to go slightly higher with a few key models. Most modern PC's should handle EQ2 quality models, but mine are around a median of 750 tris. Some have a single sub-D, others not. You can SubD any - it's your call.

I'm sending you the link to the models as these are just for you.

GeorgeS