Gauging Interest

[Splose]

This is a thread I've wanted to make for awhile, but the recent "poll" threads really turned me off making it. Now that that has died down I feel more inclined to do it.

While some of you may know who I am and what projects I have been affiliated with in the past, I am sure most people hanging around these forums nowadays do not. I have been a member of the EQEmulator community for as long as I can remember, and as a result have created or had my hand in many successful projects - EQDestiny, Emarr, and EQTownship, EQGenesis being my most memorable and fulfilling. I have also worked on many more custom servers behind the scenes. I have a database at the moment that I have been playing with on and off for the past 4-5 years that I have shown to maybe 3 people max. It has a ton of content, but I have not released it for a variety of reasons.

I have recently been contacted on more than one occasion by some old time players of my many past projects here on EQEmu asking whether or not I will ever be making a server again. The answer to that at this point in time is maybe. With the recent happenings at Daybreak it gives us a stark reminder that the Live game, while I think it has many years left in it, will not be around forever. My intent is to release a server in the near future so that when they finally sunset the Live servers my server will have a reputation as a long-standing, stable server that will catch some of the influx of Live players completely new to EQEmu. The reason I have not released this server is because I tend to stress about a few things. So I'd like to get some opinions. First I'd like to provide a basis for the conversation. If you'd indulge me please copy and paste the questions I have at the bottom and answer as you see fit.

Content Releases, Content Difficulty & Box Limits

Firstly. Bots/Mercs will never be a thing.

Current plans are to release content in "expansions". With a breakdown of the following for each "expansion":

80% solo content
10% group content (tuned for 6 players)
10% raid content (tuned for 18 players)

I am a strong supporter of boxing, and I am against boxing restrictions of anything less than 6. However, from my recent playthrough of the latest WoW expansion I really learned the value of well-made solo content. I learned that the solo player who plays for 1 or 2 hours everyday is the person you need to make happy for a stable and successful server/game/whatever.

My dream is for people on any server I create is to group up to defeat content rather than having everyone box their own group. The addition of 18 man raid content is to ensure that nobody boxing can just completely beat the game solo.

Dungeon Crawl vs. Sandbox

As someone who has played pretty much every custom server. I can safely say that from a player perspective the most fun I've ever had has been on servers where progression is very linear and strays very far away from the original sandbox style of the game. Think EZServer, THF, etc. With that said, the most rewarding server that I have ever run was my only sandbox style server, EQTownship which is best compared to Shards of Dalaya. Fully custom. While I would love to make a server like that again, my strength as a content creator has always been through my class design and boss encounter design, not storytelling and lore.

Complete Class Overhaul and Removal

Over the past couple of months I've been in the process of completely overhauling classes. Deleting every spell that a class is able to use and completely redoing it from the ground up. This can either be a selling point of the server, or something that will scare long-time EQ players away from the start. I've noticed a glaring issue with my original intent on doing this as well. EverQuest has way too many damned classes.

For a complete class overhaul I keep thinking to myself that the best course of action to provide decent balance and to preserve my sanity is to just straight up disable a lot of the classes and start with a basic lineup (2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee dps, 2 ranged dps). Introducing new classes as needed. This would allow me to provide a tight balance. I feel this is the best course of action because it is way more sustainable over a long period of time than one person balancing 16 redundant classes against each other.

Donations

A very controversial topic. Running a server takes up an unhealthy amount of time and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't want some compensation for my time after server hosting is taken care of. The problem is that pay-to-win servers are the worst. I will specifically name drop THF here since I played on that server before it turned fully P2W.

My group of friends and I all paid for donator weapons ($50 at the time). It was a great way to support the server. At the time it was the only gear available via donation. Over time you were able to donate for a fully geared character and that gear would be better than any gear obtainable by playing and drove us to quit. This is not what I'm talking about. However I thought the Donator weapons were a great addition to the game, and are a great way to use the epic 2.0 weapon models.

------------------------

So now that you guys have a bit of an understanding of where I'm at. Here's the questions I want answered as thoughtfully as possible. I think it is necessary to say that this thread does not mean I will be releasing anything, rather just probing for interest.

• What are your thoughts on a 6-box limit, when the most challenging and rewarding content will be tuned for 18 players?
• Which do you prefer, Dungeon Runner style, or Sandbox, and why?
• Do you prefer a hub zone with teleporters, or a custom zoneline travel-based world?
• How do you feel about limiting class choices?
• How do you feel about completely deleting class abilities and customizing from the ground up?
• How do you feel about introducing donator weapons as the only piece of gear obtainable via donations?
• What are some tasteful rewards for donations that I can implement that are NOT pay to win?

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Some of these ideas at the base are very similar to the project of my own. So to answer your questions:

1. No boxing. No botting. Solo content for all levels, Grouping from 20+, Raiding (2 groups) from 50+. Everytime zone added/level cap raised content added for each type of gameplay.

2. Mix of story-telling and Sandbox. One of hand - open world, on another - rich rewards for participating in complex quest lines.

3. Custom Map world. More than 1 starting city (but not too many as population can't handle 14 cities). I am aiming at 4.

4. and 5. Classes redone from scratch. Start with most basics - add more unique choice as you go.

6 and 7. Completely against donation gear of any type. Cosmetic rewards only- for example illusion items that do not alter faction.


PS. Since you played of THF, have you tried the Alternative Progression?

[phantomghost]

1. What are your thoughts on a 6-box limit, when the most challenging and rewarding content will be tuned for 18 players?

I think 6 box is a reasonable limit for a standard EQ server (larger raids). For raids of 18, I guess I would probably think 2-3 limit because I feel if the population was low enough to warrant three actual people to complete raid content, it probably is not worth it and would seem almost like a solo server. I personally do not prefer solo servers unless, I am playing on one I built specifically for myself to solo on)

2. Which do you prefer, Dungeon Runner style, or Sandbox, and why?

I prefer sandbox type games overall. I personally prefer character development (raising skills, factions, tradeskills, farming) over repetitive dungeon runs to level/obtain gear. I actually prefer grinding, but to me dungeon runners tend to feel more repetitive than leveling in several different zones (multiple options for level ranges).


3. Do you prefer a hub zone with teleporters, or a custom zoneline travel-based world?
Actually do not care either way. Each has their benefits. I feel like zoneline travel based world gives you more options. (Donation rewards, spells, clicky items, etc.)

4. How do you feel about limiting class choices?
I like more variations among different players. Not sure that I would prefer less classes. I do want a new variety of classes though (for EQ).

5. How do you feel about completely deleting class abilities and customizing from the ground up?

I prefer new classes, spells and abilities. I find when I customize a server for just myself to play on, I tend to work around new classes more than anything else.

6. How do you feel about introducing donator weapons as the only piece of gear obtainable via donations?

I feel like gear as a donator reward is just going to be p2w... or useless. If it is an item better than what you can get it is p2w. If it is an item that will be upgraded... its value decreases as you level (making it best to buy early on--- before you should really know if you wanted to donate/pay for the server).

7. What are some tasteful rewards for donations that I can implement that are NOT pay to win?

• Clicky gate type item on a timer.
• Clicky rez type item on a timer.
• Lotto type item: Could go different routes (make re-use timer dependent on the value of the item)
• EX. Clicky that summons a random (no_drop version) of a spell/armor/disc that is obtainable from farming (not purchasable from vendors). May or may not have a benefit to the class that receives it.
• Extra buff slot (guess the benefit of this would be dependent on how many buffs are in game).

I personally prefer no donation rewards, but understand the need.

[GRUMPY]

I totally agree that EQ has too many classes. I suppose they had a reason for it, in the
beginning. I am no expert on EQ's original motives for the way they designed classes,
but I am inclined to think it wasn't about class balancing, it was more about group
balancing and purpose.
Tanks, melee, healers, slowers, nukers, crowd control, slowers, buffers, etc. All built for
various tasks in a group when going to hunt. Everyone had their job to do. But EQ was
not originally built for the "solo player". I would agree, some classes got screwed with
future expansions. (like the druid/wizzy ports, etc.)

As far as "Pay 2 Win", (as donations), I have mixed thoughts about that.
On one hand, servers may very well need donations to keep the server alive for players.
But is it supposed to be a "voluntary" thing, or required to play ? Any type of donation
system on a server could be looked at in different ways by the players in how they
interpret it.
A player could see P2W as being "forced" into donating. Yes, it's free to play, but even
EQ Live is free to play, with "pay to get ahead" subscriptions. But EQ Live servers
have costs to keep those servers alive. Profit or no profit. Obviously when players
start dishing out coin to play, they will have expectations, especially having a server
kept up and available to play on what they just paid for, (or donated to).
On these Emu servers, in some cases, if not enough comes in by players, then the
server may just have to shut it down, with no choices, or the owner chooses to pay
for all the costs alone. Hence, the owner doesn't want to pay for the costs and some
of the players don't either. There has been servers here on Emu that have gone
down for that specific reason in the past.
Lots of different factors to consider in the whole cost system of having a server up.
Content, player interest, etc., it's all "part of the game", which really is a "go big or go
home" catch 22 situation. Myself, I would not put up a cost inducing server, unless I
was in a position to cover all costs, even with a donation system in place, as it might
not be reliable enough. But I don't mind spending money on a hobby that I enjoy.
I would rather spend 100 bucks/mth on long lasting entertainment, than drop it all
into a bar or casino in one night, haha

[ChaosSlayerZ]

Originally Posted by GRUMPY

I totally agree that EQ has too many classes. I suppose they had a reason for it, in the
beginning. I am no expert on EQ's original motives for the way they designed classes,
but I am inclined to think it wasn't about class balancing, it was more about group
balancing and purpose.
Tanks, melee, healers, slowers, nukers, crowd control, slowers, buffers, etc. All built for
various tasks in a group when going to hunt. Everyone had their job to do. But EQ was
not originally built for the "solo player". I would agree, some classes got screwed with
future expansions. (like the druid/wizzy ports, etc.)

Yeah, original EQ design was heavily lifted from DnD.
What designers failed to realize is that in DnD you ALWAYS playing in pre-made party, where players initially intentionally pick classes to form the best balanced group.
Obviously doesn't work this way in MMO. So say you need a tank - you got 3 to pick from right? Not exactly because if you want to raid - you better have a Warrior - which become even more and more restrictive with each next expansion. It reached truly ridiculous levels, when during OoW era a top geared paladin with 1,500 AAs was ONE-SHOTED by a raid mob, and Dev basically told the players that "you need a tank for this encounter" - meaning you actually need a warrior and warrior only. Honestly this is no way to make a game. Same goes for healers - you need Cleric to heal. I mean druid and shamy are Ok for pick up groups but you want to touch raids you MUST have minimum set number of clerics or you screwed.

In short the abundance of classes seems cool on a casual scale, but completely fails in the end game. Raiding Mage - toy maker, really? Necro - mana battery for clerics? Thats retarded.

They somewhat ratified the situation in EQ2 where they made all healers and all tanks more or less equal in terms of power, but with different edge.

[Uleat]

If you're considering 'donations' of any type, you need to become fully aware of and understand what is in our GNU GPL.

The quickest way to C&D's, and pursuant lawsuits, is to start charging to people to play on your server.

[Splose]

Originally Posted by Uleat

If you're considering 'donations' of any type, you need to become fully aware of and understand what is in our GNU GPL.

The quickest way to C&D's, and pursuant lawsuits, is to start charging to people to play on your server.

Nobody said anything about charging people to play. You let me worry about that.

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayerZ

Since you played of THF, have you tried the Alternative Progression?

Briefly. We left shortly after killing Xegony on the main progression path and I haven't logged on in years.


All in all some good feedback so far, keep it coming guys.

[GRUMPY]

Originally Posted by Uleat

If you're considering 'donations' of any type, you need to become fully aware of and understand what is in our GNU GPL.

The quickest way to C&D's, and pursuant lawsuits, is to start charging to people to play on your server.

Yes, that is where that "grey area" comes into play with P2W.
Donations, to the best of my knowledge, should be strictly volunteer ? One is
kind of playing roulette with the paperwork having that in place.(one would think) ?

[Splose]

Originally Posted by GRUMPY

Yes, that is where that "grey area" comes into play with P2W.
Donations, to the best of my knowledge, should be strictly volunteer ? One is
kind of playing roulette with the paperwork having that in place.(one would think) ?

Accepting voluntary donations is fine. I can't think of any server on the green/orange list that doesn't. As long as you aren't charging people for access to the server, which I'm a little baffled at how he extrapolated that from my post.

With that said would like to get back on-topic as much as possible.

[xariongray]

What are your thoughts on a 6-box limit, when the most challenging and rewarding content will be tuned for 18 players?
I'm not a boxer. Has nothing to do with only wanting to be a "solo" player. I suck at it. I've tried, and keep trying it, and it just doesn't work for me. On the other hand, I'm a solo player because of life outside of the game. Most of the time that I'm able to play, there either isn't anyone on or they're all in their boxed group doing stuff and are already at the end game. I'd love to be able to grab a Merc and go through and do 'group' content (specifically LDoN's, I loved those back in the day)

Which do you prefer, Dungeon Runner style, or Sandbox, and why?
I'd probably say Dungeon Runner, I do most of my leveling in the closed zones, more than I do the open ones (i.e. CoM and not EJ)

Do you prefer a hub zone with teleporters, or a custom zoneline travel-based world?
Not really sure I have an opinon on this one.

How do you feel about limiting class choices?
Each class had/has their role, and in some ways Live did little things to make some of the classes more palatable (petamorph clickies that would give Enchanters the ability to control their pets, for example). If you can pick and choose and edit or whatever to make it so that the more 'popular' classes could do more and be more survivable, sure, limit away.

How do you feel about completely deleting class abilities and customizing from the ground up?
See above.

How do you feel about introducing donator weapons as the only piece of gear obtainable via donations?
If the donation gear isn't more powerful than what can be gotten from endgame, I have no problem with it. I'd even go so far as to say Sword Of Power at lvl 1 is a 6/30 weapon. By the time you get to max level, it's now a 30/24 or whatever. I've always liked the idea of getting gear at level 1 and being able to keep it until I've reached max.

What are some tasteful rewards for donations that I can implement that are NOT pay to win?
I'd say along the lines of the same as Live. Clickie illusions for players and pets, mounts, bags (if we could ever get past the 10 slot limit factor). One server I've played on has vendors that will make any gear into an ornamentation, I really like that idea as there are a few armor sets that I like the look of more than others (especially fond of the High Elf Cultural Armor for casters)

[Sorce08]

In case you couldn't tell, I had a ton of fun on the Dungeon Runner server. You did a good job at creating the custom items and to me the rarity was just right. The items found in the higher tiers made you want to try other classes. Not to mention the augment system and item buffer/crafter.

Having said that, here are my thoughts on your questions, for what it's worth:


What are your thoughts on a 6-box limit, when the most challenging and rewarding content will be tuned for 18 players?

I like the idea of having raids that take groups but I personally don't like more than 2 box normally, 3 box max. However, that is a personal preference, other players that want to 6 box have no bearing on my fun. Though I do think being able to 6 box makes the lower end challenges fairly trivial if it is tuned towards solo/duo(ish)




Which do you prefer, Dungeon Runner style, or Sandbox, and why?

I would prefer a sandbox style server with rare itemization like in DR. I like the idea of open zones to explore for loot and/or rare spawns, where options are available if a named spawn you need is camped. Also, one thing i've noticed through all these years on EQEmu is when players start finding the good stuff, the server quickly fills up with those items, provided they are not no-drop, which eventually shortens the life span in some cases.




Do you prefer a hub zone with teleporters, or a custom zoneline travel-based world?

I am on the fence with this one. I like the idea of having custom zone lines depending on how they are done but I also like the idea of being able to go back to the hub when needed and be able to jump back into the fray as quickly as possible.




How do you feel about limiting class choices?

This also depends on how the classes are done, if customized, and the longevity each class has when gearing up and obtaining AAs.




How do you feel about completely deleting class abilities and customizing from the ground up?

I have played on some servers in the past that have done this and the ones that got it right were a lot of fun. I would certainly welcome the new experience. Having custom classes lends longevity to the server as well, in my opinion.




How do you feel about introducing donator weapons as the only piece of gear obtainable via donations?

Like most have said, I have seen donation items become a slippery slope. I have never ran my own server so I cannot speak to that end, but even though I had a lot of fun with the items I received when donating, it kind of became a have and have-not server and ended up mostly a handful of the same people on it. Once a server has a reputation as pay to win, even if it is not, I would assume it becomes a turn-off for many. Depending on the level of power the weapon comes with, it could give a big advantage as weapons seem to be largely the most needed item. One possible idea could be to offer a different look to the weapons found in the game and even with a minor clickie effect.




What are some tasteful rewards for donations that I can implement that are NOT pay to win?

I always have liked the idea of appearance items, potions, useful clickies for low to mid-tier game, and even a donator zone that has some of the rare spawns, that are also obtainable in the regular zones (i.e S2k) Experience potions are really nice as a donator item but I think it would have to be a fairly low percentage as to not allow someone to jump too far ahead and horde the camps, but would help those that don't have a lot of time every day to grind it out. I don't know if this is possible, but if it is, you could offer one-time use tokens that create an instance zone for x amount of time if someone is trying to farm specific gear. Lastly, custom titles are always fun, too.

I understand not everyone that donates has the same agenda, but I always see donations as a way to say thank you for the work and if I play more than 30 days its no different than me buying a new game off of Steam.

[Sorce08]

When you mentioned "Dungeon Runner" I thought you were also Manx, Sonikboom, etc. It was that server I was referring to in terms of customization, etc.

[Dogmai9]

What are your thoughts on a 6-box limit, when the most challenging and rewarding content will be tuned for 18 players?
2-3 characters per ip is the ideal sweet spot for me. This gives you the opportunity to make use of the holy trinity. I do not like servers that allow more than 3box This creates a situation where you are running around by yourself all the time and if you invite other people to your group, one or more of your toons fall behind. It is harder to make friends this way as well.

Which do you prefer, Dungeon Runner style, or Sandbox, and why?
I like a mixture of classic Everquest and custom content. I do not want to have to learn every single zone, every single class, every single quest, every single spell all over again. At the same time, if I wanted a purely live like experience, I would go download the live servers. Imperium is my home server and IMO they do it very well, classic content up to max level and then custom content becomes a thing.

Do you prefer a hub zone with teleporters, or a custom zoneline travel-based world?
Again a combination of the 2. I never want to have to run more than 2-3 zones to get to my target. Comparing to Imperium again (since that is what I prefer) #zone with cords is very nice to have, but it is also locked behind progression flags. You cannot #zone potimea if you have not finished PoP progression.

How do you feel about limiting class choices?
This is likely to be a major deal breaker for me. I LOVE mmos with LOTS of class options and dislike mmos that use still trees like WoW and PoE. One option I saw on a server was a prestige system. Get to max level, run a quest, reset to level 1 with your gear and skills but pick a new class, and continue. This is an interesting concept to me.

How do you feel about completely deleting class abilities and customizing from the ground up?
This is fine with me as long as it is the only major mechanic I have to relearn. If I also have relearn what zones are level appropriate and how to get to each zone, that would be a deal breaker for me.

How do you feel about introducing donator weapons as the only piece of gear obtainable via donations?
I am vehemently against pay to win of any kind what so ever and donator weapons are pay to win.

What are some tasteful rewards for donations that I can implement that are NOT pay to win?
I am for a MTX shop that offers cosmetic and QoL options. Visages, weapon and armor ornaments, and larger bags are all good options. I am also ok with some cross class buff clickies such as a wizard who can purchase a clarity style clickie item. On Imperium I see people who play a tank class, load up a 2nd account to shaman buff their main, then load an enchanter to buff their main, then load a cleric to buff their main, then back to their "main box" all time. This is just silly imo and can be done away with by buff clickies without being game breaking.

Lastly, although you did not ask about it, I wanted to add one of the things I enjoy most is custom created lifetime quests. Incredibly long and involved quests that lead to straight up OP items or always evolving items is something that keeps me around after having "maxed out" everything else. (Think about Breakdown in Communication, back when Gates of Discord was current, and just how stupidly long and involved that quest was. This will give you an idea of what I am talking about.)