Let me try again. POP/luclin exp - Page 2

pms · #16 10-29-2002, 07:32 AM

Geeze guys..

Install EQ, download patches, play on emulator = Sony doesn't want you to do this.

Install eq, download patches for PoP, play on emulator = Sony doesn't want you to do this.

In no instance does sony want you to download anything from them for the purpose of using the emulator.

What the hell is so hard to understand ?

In both cases you have downloaded software from Sony that tey do not want you to have. You people need a serious reality check.

kathgar · #17 10-29-2002, 10:22 AM

It could also be said that they want you to patch, because then we have to fix shit..but i would like you to make a single post, saying WTF you want, "trick the client into downloading files it wouln't" or whatever you said is EASILY interereted as "Hey, I want to download the expansions with the patcher that it doesn't normally let you!".. which is warez. and you are saying you don't want to do that .. and that you do want to..

pms · #18 10-29-2002, 10:48 AM

LOL you still can't explain how the two are any different. Take a shot at that before deciding one is warez and the other is not. If the two things are the same then they should be treated the same. This thread is cracking me up. Look, its your board and you can do what ever you want and I don't care. You keep responding to me and claiming to be standing on some level of legality when in fact your not at all. Why don't you just come out an admit that the only reason one is allowed and not the other is because you say its so. Don't pretend that its for any other reason. You wont be the first or the last to end an argument that way. Otherwise explain how there is a difference between using, or telling people how to use, the files off the eq CDROM to play on the emulator is any different then telling someone if they change something in thier installation they will download patches from Sony for the zones they didn't have the CD for. In both cases you are using Sony's property against thier wishes. I think one problem that we are having here is that you don't really have a grasp of how software licensing works or what the word 'warez' actually means. Read the software license for EQ. You don't have to agree to it or not. If you bought and installed the files on your computer you agreed to it. And please stop calling it warez. The term doesnt fit at ALL

warez

/weirz/ A term used by software pirates use to describe a cracked game or application that is made available to the Internet, usually via FTP or telnet, often the pirate will make use of a site with lax security.

kunta · #19 10-29-2002, 12:00 PM

The patcher will download the files for you, with sonys permission wether they want you to or not. Its part of the "normal" game. Many people play on live servers and are downloading the files that way. Sony gives you these files without "cheating" their system.

What you want is to cheat sonys system and download files that you should not be able to download without buying the expansion.

If this is not clear enough for you, then too bad.

kunta · #20 10-29-2002, 12:05 PM

Quote:

In both cases you are using Sony's property against thier wishes

Guess what, this messageboard community is not telling people how to patch, or even what to patch, and they arent going to tell you how to cheat the patcher either, go away

kathgar · #21 10-29-2002, 12:06 PM

Patching files you do have = service you paid for when you bought the game
Patching to download files you DONT have because they are part of an expansion = Copyright Infringment
And using the client to connect to the emu server isn't copyright infringment an anyway

I didn't agree to any EULA on installing, or playing, and since shrinkwrap licenses do not apply.. that means none

BTW, I'm not the one that made the forum rules

pms · #22 10-29-2002, 12:39 PM

The patcher will download the files for you, with sonys permission wether they want you to or not

So ? that doesn't make it legal to do so. You can use a gun to rob a bank. Doesn't mean its legal to because you can. Again read the licencing agreement. If you are not using the software as per the licensing agreement then you are in violation of it and subject to the same exact legal problems as if you downloaded files that weren't supposed to be downloaded using the patcher.

Your not going to win this argument from me because they are legally the same. If you want to make one illegal and the other not to help you sleep better at night then so be it. If you want to pretend they are different so laywers don't come close down your board then your fooling yourself. The fact is that if Sony really wanted to close this board down they could unless it is hosted outside the US and even then they probably could. The fact that the emulator code does not include any game data is probably the only thing that keeps it from being illegal. If they bundled the database with it then it would probably be illegal. This board provides the databases and instructions for using em. The data captured from eqlive more then likely is protected intellectual property and subject to all those nasty copyright laws. It would take Sony lawyers about three seconds to see all the spawns and quests stolen word for word from eqlive and sue you back into your mommy's basement if they wanted. By providing the databases and instructions for using them the board already is over the line. Making phoney judgement calls about some topics being 'warez' is just asinine besides having nothing to do with what warez actually are.

I was able to find the information before there was even a reply to my post so you don't need to worry about what people on this board will tell me or not.

@kathgar You really don't understand software licensing at all if you think patches are a 'service you paid for when you bought the game'

Lurker_005 · #23 10-29-2002, 01:32 PM

pms tell you what, you run your own board, get a letter from sony's legal department and take it to court. Tell us the results and I'll buy that as being legal or not legal. You keep claiming what is legal an not based on your views/opinions, dosn't make it so. You keep saying that no one will point out a differance between what eqemu does and you want to do. Well eqemu dosn't do any circumventing in order to download files from sony.

Bottom line, forum rules apply. The reasons for the rules don't have to make sense to you or anyone else other than those running the forums. Interpeting, and inforceing those rules is up to the owners/admins/moderators. kathgar is an admin, so if he says it is out of line then it is.

pms · #24 10-29-2002, 02:12 PM

At least read my posts before commenting Lurker. I have said several times that if its his board that he can do whatever he wants. That being said I'm free to disagree with it as well. If he wants to ban me for disagreeing with him then thats his right too. If Lurker likes hanging out in places nobody disagrees with the 'rules' and everyone is afraid to speak up against them then I can recommend some choice places he might want to consider living. A lot of people try hard to avoid 'em but, some find them more comfortible.

Now as for knowing what is legal and how software licensining works I can only claim an informed opinion. At least that is better then an uninformed one. If you can show what I have said that isn't true then I will gladly either prove you wrong or accept yours as being correct. Unfortunatly till you actually tell me which are wrong I can't defend them. Sticking your tounge out and saying "You keep claiming what is legal an not based on your views/opinions" doesn't show me which points I was wrong on.

kunta · #25 10-29-2002, 05:26 PM

You know all of this is pointless, if you spent as much time searching for the files that you want as you did arguing, you would have them all by now. Took me 5 min to find a place to download cshome just now.

pms · #26 10-29-2002, 06:26 PM

I already said in an earlier post I found how to get them before even the first thread was replied to and locked. And of course it is to get them directly from Sony using the patch mechanism as the patcher does for you when your normally patching. Its just another thing that makes me laugh about all this. Not only is it not legally different its not physically different. Its all a silly fantasy the powers that be have made to feel better about things. Its thier site and so be it. You can ask me to abide by the rules while I'm here but, that doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Lots of laws in the non virtual world make no sense to me but, I don't like jail much so, I try and avoid breaking them.
If nothing else I hope this thread limits the use of the word 'warez' anyway. It just doesn't even slightly apply to this case.
While this was fun for a bit everyone is just spouting the 'if you don't like our rules don't play in our playground' line now and its getting old. Unless someone has something else to add that isn't just tired old ass kissing to the admins or 'you could have found the files faster if ...' I'll be happy to let it die already. Feel free to keep going if you want me to but, its old and I can tell I'm not dealing with the captains of the debate team here. Happy trails...

Xarslik · #27 10-30-2002, 03:09 AM

Plain and simple, EQEmu is NOT warez. If packet information collected was intellectual property, then Magelo would not exist.

Warez, as you quoted, is "A term used by software pirates use to describe a cracked game or application that is made available to the Internet, usually via FTP or telnet, often the pirate will make use of a site with lax security" which EQEmu is not at all.

Now, if I go out and BUY EverQuest, and any expansions, I am BUYING the eqgame.exe file, the vpatch, kpatch etc files required to use the patcher. By buying these I have legal right to download new files from the patcher, regardless of whether or not I have an active account.

However if I were to get the EverQuest data somewhere else, THAT is warez. That is why we cannot allow any transferring of EverQuest files on the boards. They can only be obtained normally if you have BOUGHT the game.

We make the exception with eqhost.txt as it is simple textual data. It's not a binary file of any sort, someone who's never played EQ could make one. Also it is CLIENT-SIDE, and VI cannot prevent me from doing ANYTHING to ANY everquest file of mine on my machine.

In your reference to skriptkiddies and flamers, etc. The majority of these types of open source projects will end up with boards full of flames. It's just how it works. EQEmu does not have its own PR department. They're a bunch of coders + a few users who've learned the ins and outs of the program, and they see some random person come in and post some simple error answered 5 times already. Usually a very indescript message about it, asking for "hlep!!" like they deserve utmost priority because THEY have an error, and the coders are responsible for EVERYTHING wrong. They get pissed, I know I would. It's very annoying when you yourself know the information can be easily obtained, but people are being too lazy to use common sense to find it. On a side note, most of everything I've learned involving the Emu and really anything on the computer was from me experimenting and discovering what I could do on my own, what does what, and what doing soandso does to an error I'm having. I don't immediately go on the forums and ask for help.

Sorry for the semi-rant, got off on a limb. But hopefully you get the point.

kunta · #28 10-30-2002, 04:07 AM

actually the eqhost.txt that is on this site has nothing to do with sony/verant, its just a text file that has some info in it. But other than that, good post

DeletedUser · #29 10-30-2002, 04:39 AM

Actually pms, Sony does consider downloading an expansion off their patchserver that you did not buy warez. You weren't here when the PoP beta files were released. Since I run the domain and webserver, guess who lost all their accounts? I did not even post the link here, and it wasn't hosted by us, but I was still threatened (and Sourceforge also) with legal action not even 4 hours after the link appeared on our forums.

That being said, are you going to refund me the 1000's of hours spent playing on the lost characters? I had over 600 days played since release. If you are, please, get a cashier's check made out to the address & name listed in the whois of the domain. The sum total would be around 860,000 USD. Thanks.

pms · #30 10-30-2002, 04:52 AM

>Plain and simple, EQEmu is NOT warez. If packet information >collected was intellectual property, then Magelo would not exist

Who said it was ? My point that telling someone how to change files in the eq directory to cause the patcher to download PoP files is not either. No more then changing them to point at someone elses server so you don't have to pay Sony any money. My thread was locked for being 'warez'. It had nothing to do with 'warez' Did you even read this thread or just skip to the end and add your two cents ?
The data from eqllive is so unique that it wouldn't take them three minutes in court to prove they were the sole creators of it and it was 'stolen' from them. Thats what copyrights are for. Do you belive if you record a song off the radio you now legally own it and can do whatever you want with it ? The whole point of my arguments is that to make a distinction on legality when your providing information that is clearly copyrighted (such as the databases) is hypocritical.

>By buying these I have legal right to download new files from >the patcher, regardless of whether or not I have an active >account

No no no no no.... You don't understand software licenses if you think this is true. You have no rights what so ever other then prescribed in the license, In fact, you don't even own the software under 99% of software licenses. You have only purchased the rights to use the software as prescribed under the license. Again EVERYTHING installed with the eq installer (inclucing eqhosts.txt) is covered. Take some time and actually read a couple of them. I think you'll be surprised. The thing is it is bad publicity and not cost effect for the companies to target individual violations or small companies (although this is changing as times get tougher). That is the only reason you don't see individuals not being held up on these things. They go after large companies that can pay the fines and nobody cares if they get screwed.

>Also it is CLIENT-SIDE, and VI cannot prevent me from doing >ANYTHING to ANY everquest file of mine on my machine.

They can withdraw the license to use the software which is pretty much what happens automatically when you break it. Again you obviously are confused about how software licensing works. Shit like this is why things like FSF and GNU were started. You have no real rights or ownership under most software licenses. Your not even legally allowed to transfer ownership in some cases. Its one of the things Sony used when trying to shut down the ebay crew. Sony proved they owned the data and the software. End of story.